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 Post subject: Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:09 pm 
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Location: Kettering Ohio
Shock mounting plan should work. Just double check before you finish weld. The mount is personal preference. I don't think you gain a ton of strength with one mount style over another. I'd personally go with the first example so I wouldn't have to cut the old tube out. If you like the second method better have at it. It's just a little time and you'll be stuck with it for a while, so make it whatever you think will look best.

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 Post subject: Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:15 pm 
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Location: Chattanooga Tennessee
You are right with the cv and shock mount. The design for the mount needs to be strong and incorporate double shear for the shock bolts top and bottom. The angle tube could be left in place. I would cut the original shock mount boss off to clear your new shock and spring. Using the tubing you have build triangulated mounts and be sure to tack the mounts in several places to keep things from walking with the heat. Again mock it up tack it up in many places and be sure that you put the bolt through the mount and add a washer in between the spherical bearings so that you gap doesn't close up with welding/ powder coating/ painting.

You have this figured out. If you need to call me I can be reached at 813-997-1060.

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 Post subject: Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:14 pm 
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Do you have the coil overs? If not I strongly suggest getting them before you weld anything in. You can mock up as much as you want but without the actual part in your hand it all could be wasted time. You might need to remove the original shock bar to clear the coil springs. And do your self a favor, take that Starrett angle meter and put back in the toolbox and leave it there, it's messing you up.

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 Post subject: Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:21 pm 
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Mike, he has his shocks, I am not sure about springs and you are right he really needs a mock up spring set. Hey are you building HD coil over front beams for King and link?

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 Post subject: Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:22 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:37 pm
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Location: Southern Indiana
Thanks guys... will get it started tonight... pic's will follow if I have questions or when I get anything major accomplished...
For the upper mount I will see what I have left for tubing after I get the other stuff welded up... might look OK if I keep that tube in and cut the shock boss off like you said and just add mount like in the #1 pic...

I do have shocks and springs (upper and lower)...

Mike what should I do if I don't use the angle finder?

Image
Need to see how to put the bottom spring on...

was it the heavy spring goes on the bottom and the lighter on the top?


Last edited by myrddin on Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:58 pm 
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It's simple. No matter what we suggest, no matter how much experience we share with you, those axle and CV's are going to TELL YOU where THEY need to live. The trick is to be flexible enough with your design to accommodate what they tell you. Your limit straps and clevises are the one thing that will allow you to make the final adjustments. Keep the limit straps as short as possible to limit the amount of stretch, and they WILL stretch. Make the limit straps as square to the trailing arm at max droop as possible and make sure the straps don't rub against anything.

And I'm wondering how it is you have coil springs already? Your springs are selected after everything else is finished based on the sprung weight of the back of the car. You keep adding things thereby changing the weight which changes the required spring rate. Did you weigh the car? Did you weigh the car with you behind the wheel and a passenger?

Lighter or tender spring goes on top. The heavier or main spring is on the bottom.

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 Post subject: Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:10 pm 
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Red Barron wrote:
Mike, he has his shocks, I am not sure about springs and you are right he really needs a mock up spring set. Hey are you building HD coil over front beams for King and link?


I'm not building anything for anyone until my car is on the trail.

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 Post subject: Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:14 pm 
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Location: Southern Indiana
When I bought the springs I told the guy what I had, he told me what to get... I don't remember talking about any weight factor (I have never weighed it :) )

OK... while I have your attention... Let me ask.

you say they will tell me where they want to be... I am sure you mean by when I lift and lower the axle/arm and turn the axle by hand I need to listen for the noise... with this said should I drop it till I hear noise (the catching I showed you guys in the video) and then lift till its 100% gone and stay with that? (meaning this is my max droop) then weld up my fully extended shock and then add the straps as you say and take another 1 inch out of the shock?

or should I look at it like this... drop the axle/arm till the axle has no movement, lift each side about 1.5 inches and then keep that as max droop (eve if its catching) then weld up the shocks, and add the limit straps (as you stated) and dial them in both reducing the shock travel a little and removing any left over popping/clicking/ and so on in the CV's...


It seems like everyone has a dif. opinion on this... I just want to do it right...


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 Post subject: Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:58 pm 
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myrddin wrote:
When I bought the springs I told the guy what I had, he told me what to get... I don't remember talking about any weight factor (I have never weighed it :) )

Call this guy back and tell him your sending the springs back. I want to ask who you called but I won't, he's a douche bag for not asking your weights. It's IMPOSSIBLE to recommend springs with out weights and measurements.
READ THIS
http://f-o-a.com/calculator.html

OK... while I have your attention... Let me ask.

you say they will tell me where they want to be... I am sure you mean by when I lift and lower the axle/arm and turn the axle by hand I need to listen for the noise... with this said should I drop it till I hear noise (the catching I showed you guys in the video) and then lift till its 100% gone and stay with that? (meaning this is my max droop) then weld up my fully extended shock and then add the straps as you say and take another 1 inch out of the shock?

When I say they will tell you where they want to live I mean when it's all finished, your on the trail and either the click is there or it's not there. If it's there adjust it until it's gone, if it's not there you can raise it up some. On my last car my CV's always clicked a little, a little mind you.

or should I look at it like this... drop the axle/arm till the axle has no movement, lift each side about 1.5 inches and then keep that as max droop (eve if its catching) then weld up the shocks, and add the limit straps (as you stated) and dial them in both reducing the shock travel a little and removing any left over popping/clicking/ and so on in the CV's...

YES

Before you weld in the shock mounts shorten the shock 1" That helps from over extending the shock, which is the last thing you want to do to a shock and if need be you can gain a little more droop if it's not right.

It seems like everyone has a dif. opinion on this... I just want to do it right...


I don't think it's a difference in opinion, it's a different way of explaining things.
Remember opinions are just like azzholes, everyone has one and most of them stink.

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 Post subject: Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:11 pm 
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Location: Southern Indiana
lol... OK. so you really do use the limit strap for more than the limiting factor... Mike you stated this a while back in another post... you feel like I should use this and just keep cranking the limit strap down till its good?

Quote:
First make the stub axles and drive flanges level with each other. There should be some lateral movement with the axle, somewhere around 3/16" to 1/4" this makes sure the axles are not too long, the lateral movement should be the same for each side. If one side has more than the other the trans is not centered, that should be corrected first. Start to lower the trailing arm while moving the axle back and forth, just as the lateral movement stops raise the trailing arm up one inch and set your limit straps that is max droop. Do the opposite moving the trailing arm up and set your bump stop. There might be some fine tuning needed is there is a bunch of clicking from the cv's at max droop, just shorten up the limit straps some.


Should I expect the limit strap to be able to dial in the axle? How much adjustment do you get out of one?


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 Post subject: Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:24 pm 
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That is what I'm suggesting you do. I think that is what we all have been suggesting. All of this just gets you into the ball park. And the amount of adjustment depends on the way you fab up the boss for the clevis. Should you drill a hole through 1 1/2" tubing and add a piece of 1/2" id tubing, called a rosette you wont have too much adjustment maybe 1" or 2" If you were to use a gusseted piece of 1/4" flat you will have a bunch more.
I know this is up front but you get the idea
Image

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 Post subject: Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:30 pm 
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Location: Southern Indiana
Mad Mike... huge help... I think it just sunk in ;) damn thick head of mine... Really to be honest I just have never seen this stuff before, and I don't know anyone that knows anything about this stuff... Just know that I think its really cool you guys stick in there and help like this...

I am all set now... ready to work... I will follow up later on to show you guys how it ends up looking...


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 Post subject: Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:12 pm 
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Remember it's just metal. You can always cut it back out, weld it again and then cut it back out and weld it again and then cut..........you get the point. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:18 pm 
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Great example Mike. I agree with mounting the clevis off th the side of the main tube for more adjustment. myriding you will have this behind you in no time. Like fortydegnth points out its only metal and weld. tack it up and if you don't like it change it. Keep us posted

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 Post subject: Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:11 pm 
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Location: Southern Indiana
thnx guys... I worked on it for 4 hours tonight cut 2 tubes for the torsion to the frame.. will do the frame to trans tubes tomorrow... I don't dare show you my welding... its been a while and this welder is not what I am used to... going to be grinding my behind off... think I will do some test beads tomorrow and go at it agn...

Now let me tell you this notching the tube with a hand grinder is a bad deal... I am doing the best I can... And I hate it. Hope to improve tomorrow... no pic's till I clean it up....

I wish I had friends like you near by... I'll keep at it... and thanks for sticking in there with me...


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 Post subject: Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:24 pm 
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If your welds look like mounds of gum stuck to the tube turn the heat up and the wire speed down.

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 Post subject: Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:31 pm 
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Where in Southern Indiana do you live? Sounds like you are getting it figured out but I'm just southeast of Indianapolis off of I74 and would be more then happy to help you in any way I can.

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 Post subject: Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:35 pm 
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The best thing about this tread is I'm about to tackle all of this myself and all my questions will be answered!
:mrgreen: Much thanks to myrddin for the tread and all of the more experienced guys willing to help out!


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 Post subject: Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:53 pm 
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He is in Sellersburg IN.

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 Post subject: Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:43 pm 
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Something like 70 or 80 miles apart, which isn't toooooooooooooo bad.

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 Post subject: Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:00 am 
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Yup, Guys I am in Sellersburg, not far from the Bass Pro Shop... I am going to try some test beads on scrap today to see if I can figure it out... I'm ashamed to say I used to be a certified welder but I haven't even seen a welder for over 13 years so I was fooling myself I guess... Bubble gum would be to kind...

You guys are all really cool... your effort to try to guide me says a lot... I'll get it done... Just want to be sure it safe on the other end is all... I am going to be grinding for a long time to make these welds presentable... and even then everyone will know that they looked like crap and had to be cleaned up...

As far as the welder goes, it seemed like the wire was gone before it ever hit the surface, and when it did it was not consistent... also it didn't help that I used a grinder with a combo of a cutting wheel and grinding wheel to notch the tube ends, I was not able to get it close and in fact the one end has what looked to be a few different angles on it so I would get one sort of close and then screw it up trying to get the other... Todays work is straight on so it might go better... I don't know.

I will let you know how the test beads go... thanks agn for helping me.


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 Post subject: Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:44 am 
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If the wire is disappearing and it's popping, the wire speed is too slow. Can you post a pic of the front of the welder? Mess with the settings on scrap until you get a pretty even sizzle.

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 Post subject: Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:16 am 
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I messed with the settings a bit last night... the gas and wire feed speed... this is the welder...
Image

I will run some tests with it later on to see if I can get a more consistent weld out of it and me...


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 Post subject: Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:52 am 
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Since it's a relatively small amperage welder I'd probably try setting the heat at "3" and wire speed between 40-60 to start. See how it works and adjust from there. If you are just blowing through the metal and making holes turn the wire up and move a little faster or try it on a lower setting. I think with the right wire speed you could run that on "4" heat setting. Make sure you turn the gas bottle valve on.

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 Post subject: Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:56 am 
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Your talking about the voltage setting right... also what for gas? I will try it out after work today...


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