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 Post subject: roof
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:02 am 
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After looking at the scary pics of Plumber Bills buggy I was looking at my roof it is the same basic style frame and wont yall opinon . Is it good enough not to crush down that far ?ImageImageImage


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 Post subject: Re: roof
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:07 pm 
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We think a like, I was just looking at my buggy as well. Since all three of us have the same Berrien 4 seat design, I wanted to get some advice on my modifications. Here are some pics of the extra bracing i added after my roll last year.

1. I doubled up the horizontal head tube.. (2 bars going from the windshield to the rear roll bar)
2. I added an extra vertical brace between the head tube and side bar.
3. I added an extra diagonal support on the rear roll bar

Here are the before pics
Image

Here are the after pics
Image

Image

Image

Image

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 Post subject: Re: roof
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:58 pm 
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Aboone, your braceing is pretty good and MM yours looks nice, but geometrically there is nothing better than an X brace. The X transfers the force from one corner to the complete opposite making it harder to fold or give.

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 Post subject: Re: roof
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 3:56 pm 
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DVS1 wrote:
Aboone, your braceing is pretty good and MM yours looks nice, but geometrically there is nothing better than an X brace. The X transfers the force from one corner to the complete opposite making it harder to fold or give.

dave should know his buggy is built like a tank. should take any kind of abuse and still be safe

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 Post subject: Re: roof
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 3:58 pm 
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Looks like you both did a ton of good for protection. What do y'all think about the bar shown in blue? Thats what I had in mind for the passenger side of mine, and putting a shorter one like aboone has done on the driver's side.

Make it a little tougher to get in n out, but I dont think the w/shield bar would come in on you at all. A friend did it to his and says it really isnt that hard to get in around. I think it would help a lot, especially on buggies with more swept back windshields, like fugitives, etc.

(Sorry about the small pic, best I could do. :D )

Image


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 Post subject: Re: roof
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:50 pm 
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I like that bar . I think that is the weakest link is the front windshield bar and I would not own a fugitive (which is a cool looking good climbing frame ) with out that brace in there.JMO


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 Post subject: Re: roof
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 9:23 pm 
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Hey kybuggy,

I really like your idea with the diagonal support and I would agree that the windshield bar is the weakest link. Last time I was at Wilborn I saw a blue buggy like that. I believe he got in and out through the windshield. I just went and looked at my buggy and I would have to get in and out through the roof.

I need to figure out how to add an X brace. Right now, I cannot find a spot that would still allow me to keep it a four seater.

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 Post subject: Re: roof
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:20 am 
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mickey u should deff do something with the windshild bar u should do like it is on the first buggy posted i got a invader with it like that and it has held up threw 8 flips or so

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 Post subject: Re: roof
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:23 pm 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXwpsaHueUk now here is as roof :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: roof
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:20 pm 
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Everyone please keep in mind diagonal bracing is only affective within the plane it is installed and the diagonal must be contained by two opposing axis.
Image
In your example Larry it would help for any impact in between the yellow arrows. That bracing would do nothing in a side impact, in red.
In Mickey Mouse's case, any impact from the yellow arrow direction, there is nothing to stop the roof from diamonding except the X bracing shown in blue. I showed it on the windshield hoop for illustration, this would be better behind the front seat to keep the entire roof from folding in as in PlumberBill's crash.
Image
Also the diagonal braces in the roof as they are would do little to prevent folding because they intersect on or near a bend, two different planes and they terminate on a straight section of tube.
Image
I'm not saying what you have is wrong or bad, it's better than nothing.

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 Post subject: Re: roof
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:44 pm 
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well put mike

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 Post subject: Re: roof
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:09 am 
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MadMike, the yellow arrows you drew are pretty much the impacts I was trying to gain protection from.

I have x-bracing behind my seat, my windshield hoop is fairly narrow, and the roof is 14 ga. steel sheetmetal welded solid all the way around with two cross braces in it. I was hoping those factors would help keep it from laying over too bad in a side impacting roll over. Dont really have anywhere to add any more bracing against that, except maybe some gussets. Pretty tight quarters in my driver's compartment already.

I definately need to add some stuff to my wife's three seater's roof, too. I 'll try to get some pics of it posted soon and see what you think for it.

Thanks for your expertise. 8)
Larry


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 Post subject: Re: roof
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:34 am 
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Hey Mike,

Thanks for the post. I never really put much thought into the cross lateral structure. I was only considering the top down structure. I will spend some more time trying to find a place to put some X braces. M

Thanks again

MM

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 Post subject: Re: roof
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:54 am 
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I added an x to the headbar of my berrien 2 seater to stop it from crushing sideways:
Image

But I am not sure how to help the windshield bar to keep it from crushing in like plumberbills. That first big hit is the one that will take it out, once they get to rolling they don't seem to fold much.
Image
The obvious answer is to run a bar down from the corner of the windshield bar on each side but I drive this thing on the road all the time in the summer and don't want it to be miserable to ride in. One thing I think I have going for me is the light weight of it all. I only weigh #1140 so it shouldn't crush like an 1800 pounder would.

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 Post subject: Re: roof
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:21 pm 
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Image
Image
Image

This looks very strong
Image


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 Post subject: Re: roof
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:31 pm 
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What about adding something like this. It would help stop the front from collapsing like Bills

Image


Or this would make it easier to get in and out but I don’t know how good it would look
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 Post subject: Re: roof
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:57 pm 
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Well it's relieving me seeing everybody brace up their roofs. I hate seeing people when we go riding that have no bracing on their roof. I think it's insane to have any kind of buggy without at least having x-bracing in it. just my two cents.

-Dakotah/koko

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 Post subject: Re: roof
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:59 pm 
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hillaholic wrote:
What about adding something like this. It would help stop the front from collapsing like Bills

Image


I was thinking of something like that. I wonder how high it would need to go on the windshield bar to make a difference in strength. I know the higher the better, but how low would I be able to do it, still boost the strength, and not be a pain in the butt to get in around. Would 6 inches up the pipe and 6 inches back from it make much of a difference?

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 Post subject: Re: roof
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:49 pm 
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Wouldn't it be possible to put a diagonal brace in the side where it would be hinged? And some type of latch or spring loaded pin to hold it in place. I think I will be the guinea pig and try to come up with something. I would hinge it at the bottom so it would drop down to let me in or out. And pin it at the top.


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 Post subject: Re: roof
PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:21 am 
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That crossed my mind when I was looking in to adding the diagonals across my "side window" areas.
My prostreet car had an older version of these: http://chassisengineering.com/shopDetai ... uctId=1456

Dont know why they wouldn't work in a buggy, but more BS to add to the clutter, and another thing to worry about latching. Gonna take 10 minutes to get your stuff together (gulp down rest of your beer,latch the cooler, put on helmet ,neckroll, latch doorbar, 5pt harness ) to head down the trail, or up the hill. :mrgreen:
Also wondered if they get tweaked, could they be hard to open by yourself if you're on your lid?

Larry


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 Post subject: Re: roof
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:38 pm 
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Why does everybody keep using that 1 1/2" .095 wall tubing? You don't see NASCAR, NHRA, IHRA or any other motor sport using that light of a tubing. I think that stuff was only made for recreational sand buggies. We do some hard core riding and climbing, so personally, I want every bit of strength in my roll cage that I can possibly get. My whole frame is made out of 1 5/8" .120 wall dom tubing. I had a roll over quite a few years back and it was unbelievable how I saw my roll cage bend. But it was nothing like Bill's rollover. I've seen people use gas pipe, fence pipe, and even electrical conduit on their roll cages. :roll: I think the best way to strengthen a roll cage is to start off with heavier, stronger tubing.


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 Post subject: Re: roof
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 8:52 am 
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afterburnt wrote:
Why does everybody keep using that 1 1/2" .095 wall tubing? You don't see NASCAR, NHRA, IHRA or any other motor sport using that light of a tubing. I think that stuff was only made for recreational sand buggies. We do some hard core riding and climbing, so personally, I want every bit of strength in my roll cage that I can possibly get. My whole frame is made out of 1 5/8" .120 wall dom tubing. I had a roll over quite a few years back and it was unbelievable how I saw my roll cage bend. But it was nothing like Bill's rollover. I've seen people use gas pipe, fence pipe, and even electrical conduit on their roll cages. :roll: I think the best way to strengthen a roll cage is to start off with heavier, stronger tubing.

after reading posts here and hillaholics post at the samba http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=354795 i've decided to do it in 11/2 .120 dom 15/8 would be nice but i dont have the die's for the bender

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 Post subject: Re: roof
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 9:59 am 
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afterburnt wrote:
Why does everybody keep using that 1 1/2" .095 wall tubing? You don't see NASCAR, NHRA, IHRA or any other motor sport using that light of a tubing. I think that stuff was only made for recreational sand buggies. We do some hard core riding and climbing, so personally, I want every bit of strength in my roll cage that I can possibly get. My whole frame is made out of 1 5/8" .120 wall dom tubing. I had a roll over quite a few years back and it was unbelievable how I saw my roll cage bend. But it was nothing like Bill's rollover. I've seen people use gas pipe, fence pipe, and even electrical conduit on their roll cages. :roll: I think the best way to strengthen a roll cage is to start off with heavier, stronger tubing.


There was a guy around here bent out an entire drag rail from 1" conduit. He had a stout 2276 that pushed it 3.80s in the 300ft sand drag. I wore a $5 yard sale helmet and that thing even scared me. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: roof
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 10:07 am 
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afterburnt wrote:
My whole frame is made out of 1 5/8" .120 wall dom tubing.


:shock: :shock: And you bent it in a rollover?????? Was there a train involved in that wreck?
I promise to NEVER park in your way!! :lol:

I think it is depending on the amount of weight that is gonna be crushing down on the chassis for us. They have to factor in speed, we dont in a climbing rollover. I've seen light buggies take some horrendous flips and rolls that you think they are a gonner and it not do any major damage with .095 1 1/2" and .065 1" for bracing. And I've seen bigger buggies lay over easy and bend the heck out of stuff. They DO need heavier stronger tubing and a good design. I flipped straight back over a little bank, the windshield bar was at least 20' in the air, nothing hit til I was at the bottom and my roof was the only thing to hit. Put it out of square a 1/4",but no collapsed pipe. But if it was a laid back w/shield or heavier buggy, and/or a heavier drivetrain & wheels, it could've been 'all she wrote'. Build the cage to support the buggy. I agree that anything other than tubing is crazy to use.


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 Post subject: Re: roof
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 12:20 pm 
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Yea, and even worse than my dad's flip, Was darrell's big flip. His buggy is all 1 1/2" .095 and all of the braces are 1" .065. If you dont remember the video, he flipped from the VERY top of a pretty much vertical hill and landed straight on his roof. It did nothing but push it down a little bit right in the middle, just because he didnt have any bracing in the very top of the roof, Which he does now. It all depends on your application, bigger, heavier two seaters MAY need the thicker, heavier pipe all over, But most of the single seaters, or even light two seaters, aren't heavy enough to crush theirselves. It takes a tank of a buggy to smoosh itself in a striaight back flip. Or one with no bracing, which there aren't many of.

Here's his flip. Didn't hurt the buggy very much at all. Right at about 1:20 in the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyPcZEQklW4

-Dakotah/koko

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