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Won't Start
http://www.woodsbuggy.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9866		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  shakeedogg [ Sat Jul 10, 2010 3:01 am ]
Post subject:  Won't Start
After spending all of the last 7 months building my buggy I cannot get it to start. We adjusted the valves. I think it is in the timing but we timed it every way that can be thought of. When I put it on TDC and pull the distributor cap the rotor is pointing between the #1 and #2 posts. We compared the location of the inspection cover on the distributor to my friends buggy and baja and on both the inspection cover is facing the gen belt. We did have it try to fire (spit 2 puffs of black smoke and flames out the exhaust) but the distributor inspection cover was facing the drivers side of the buggy. I hate to but I am so frustrated and ready to scrap it. I have never had so much trouble timing a car before. What are we doing wrong? It is a stock 1600 with a 09 distributor.
Author:  MickeyMouse [ Sat Jul 10, 2010 7:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Won't Start
I would start with verifying you have spark.. Pull a plug, connect the plug to the plug wire and hold the bottom of the plug against the frame. Make sure to hold the wire not the plug. Crank the engine. You should get a spark. If not..check plugs, coil,points,distributor. If you do not like your helper, rather than holding the plug to the frame, just ask them to hold the plug. :twisted: :twisted:

As for the timing.. I always set my rotor to point at 1 (not between 1 &2). After it is running, you can advance the timing it you need to.. Another thing, make sure you have the firing order correct. 1 - 4 - 3 - 2
Author:  MickeyMouse [ Sat Jul 10, 2010 7:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Won't Start
I would start with verifying you have spark.. Pull a plug, connect the plug to the plug wire and hold the bottom of the plug against the frame. Make sure to hold the wire not the plug. Crank the engine. You should get a spark. If not..check plugs, coil,points,distributor. If you do not like your helper, rather than holding the plug to the frame, just ask them to hold the plug. :twisted: :twisted:

As for the timing.. I always set my rotor to point at 1 (not between 1 &2). After it is running, you can advance the timing it you need to.. Another thing, make sure you have the firing order correct. 1 - 4 - 3 - 2
Author:  Stevo [ Sat Jul 10, 2010 9:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Won't Start
Every dist wont be in the exact spot as the other motors. A good way to start is to static time it then advance from there. Sounds like the gear is a tooth off. Are you running points or electronic? If its poping out the exhaust just turn it counterclockwise til it runs. Your close
Author:  gasman [ Sat Jul 10, 2010 12:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Won't Start
pull the #1 plug,put the piston tdc on the compression stroke,you can tell by feeling the air coming out the plug hole by bumping it over,then set the piston tdc by hand.pull your distributor cap and the rotor button should be pointing at the #1 plug.turn the distributor to align them up.this should get your engine to start.if it still wont run make sure you have the distributor installed correctly and its set all the way down.you have fire and if points they are gapped correctly.with the valves already adjusted this motor should start if you do a complete run through of this.i'd say you just need to turn your distrib to where its under the #1 plug wire and your good to go.chad :mrgreen:
Author:  shakeedogg [ Sat Jul 10, 2010 1:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Won't Start
Sorry I didn't clarify it but yes I have spark at the plug and am getting gas. The firing order is correct and I did everything in the replies except checking the points. We did static time it and it still wouldn't start. Is it possible that it was close to starting when it was shooing flames and smoke out the exhaust even though the distributor was pointing way off from where i thought it should be?
Author:  rail1914 [ Sat Jul 10, 2010 4:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Won't Start
gasman wrote:
pull the #1 plug,put the piston tdc on the compression stroke,you can tell by feeling the air coming out the plug hole by bumping it over,then set the piston tdc by hand.pull your distributor cap and the rotor button should be pointing at the #1 plug.turn the distributor to align them up.this should get your engine to start.if it still wont run make sure you have the distributor installed correctly and its set all the way down.you have fire and if points they are gapped correctly.with the valves already adjusted this motor should start if you do a complete run through of this.i'd say you just need to turn your distrib to where its under the #1 plug wire and your good to go.chad :mrgreen:

just like gasman said pull #1 plug right frount plug put your finger in hole bump till finger blows out put on tdc cheak rotor like gasman said
Author:  shakeedogg [ Sat Jul 10, 2010 10:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Won't Start
Just got done doing just as ya'll said and still no luck on starting.Thanks for all of the help and advice.
Author:  ridenrace6 [ Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Won't Start
are you sure that the valves are not too tight? and also the rotation of the rotor button is to the right ( clockwise ) and of course the engine must be on TDC of the compression stroke.

i know this has all been recommended befor but if its getting gas and is firing good and has enough compression then it has to be a timing issue, maybe this will help

Which cylinder is what:

front of car

3 1
4 2

rear of car



Distributor:

front of car

3 2
o
4 1

rear of car
(The o is the centre wire to the coil.)



Firing order:

1-4-3-2
Author:  shakeedogg [ Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Won't Start
Yes exactly like that and still nothing. We have the valves adjusted at .06 and every cylinder is getting a nice blue spark. I'm not new at timing vehicles and have worked on many but this VW has me stumped because with air,fuel,and spark it outta ran by now.
Author:  ridgebuggy [ Sun Jul 11, 2010 8:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Won't Start
this might sound stupid but check the compression it may be so low it cant run
Author:  ridenrace6 [ Sun Jul 11, 2010 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Won't Start
is this a fresh built engine ( case split for some reason ) or one that has previously ran with only top end type work done to it?
Author:  kevin f [ Sun Jul 11, 2010 12:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Won't Start
Check for air leaks around your intake. Ive seen that before. Usually if there is a air leak you can choke the carb off a little and it will start. This is about the only thing I know left to try. If youve got fire, fuel, and spark it should run. Ive also seen the cam be out of time on the gears cause that to. One tooth off will cause crazy things.
Author:  A. Cole [ Sun Jul 11, 2010 12:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Won't Start
What carb? We had a 34 pict that was missing the idle cut off and we didn't notice, wouldn't start. Put it in and vroom vroom.
Author:  rockrockets1 [ Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Won't Start
Make shure the jugs are seated in the heads .I have saw this happen to heads that have been fly cut the tabs on the head woun't let the jug seat thus causing the problem
Author:  rockrockets1 [ Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Won't Start
grind off the tabs on the head
Author:  shakeedogg [ Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Won't Start
The motor is a secondhand one that I bought off a guy I know and it did run but not now. The carb is a webber 2 barrel. The only thing I can notice is that the only way it even tries to run is when I turn the distributor way advanced. I rechecked the valves and timing yesterday and it still wouldn't do nothing except a few times when the distributor was turned it would spit through the carb.
Author:  kevin f [ Sun Jul 11, 2010 3:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Won't Start
what type weber carb is it. Is it a idf, ida or what. If the motor has been sitting for a while the carb may need cleaning. Have you tried starting fluid? Is the starter turning the motor fast enough? there are several possibilitys to deal with.
Author:  aboone993 [ Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Won't Start
I know you cked it already but it sounds like the timing is 1/2 a round off . it is very easy to do this by accident because TDC can come up and the #1 cyl not be on the firing cycle
it is fireing with the exhaust valve open and igniting raw fuel getting in the exhaust is why it is shooting flames out of the exhaust
Author:  Dave Winterburn [ Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Won't Start
I think you said the only thing you changed was the dizzy to an 009. Reconfirm your TDC and put it there. with the cap off you will see a line scribed in the seating surface, rotor should be pointing to it. Also I think some of the old 09's used a different point for #1 as well as a different * for #3. (Which was only a benifit on engines running the stock old style coolers).
Author:  vw_brandon [ Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Won't Start
i had my old motor do this to me im not sure what was wrong with it but i took it to a guy close by and he fixed it for me, can you roll it off and it start?

cause mine would but it had a miss to it
Author:  gasman [ Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Won't Start
if you have fire and gas it will run.what all have you done to the motor since the last time it started.if you have changed intakes or carbs,have some one crank it and spray a little starter fluid around the seals and if it hits your sucking air and need to seal it up.if youve changed distribs then pull it out and make sure the key way on the bottom is aligned properly and set it and make sure its correctly installed and is completely set down all the way.if you do this and your rotor button is pointing at the #1 plug and your firing order is set 1 4 3 2 clockwise,you have strong fire and fuel it should start.if you have been inside the motor and have the cam off then you probly dont have the valves adjusted correctly but you should have caught that when setting them.if it was me i'd start all over from the begining.pull #1 set tdc compression stroke then adjust valves on #1 check your pully and mark it dead center top with the split in case,then turn pully counterclockwise 180 degree's till the mark is bdc aligned with the split in case.pull #2 plug and check to make sure the piston is tdc then adjust the valves on #2.and repeat 180 ccw to #3 and then #4.put back on #1 and align distributor to be pointing at #1 plug,this way you will know that its timed right and dont just go by the marks or a degree pulley make sure you have a correct mark for tdc on eack piston by checking each one.set your pionts on 16,recheck fire to each plug,check make sure carbs giving you gas and with no air leaks on intake then it should start.i'm just throwing this out there to try and help.there could be alot more that will make it not run but if it was a fresh rebuild and it ran,then you got the engine and now it just wont start doesnt sound to serious,sometimes even a weak coil or as simple as a bad distributor cap,bad plugs,condenser.but sounds like youve checked them so just start over and run back through it. good luck. chad :mrgreen:
Author:  shakeedogg [ Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Won't Start
I printed out this whole thread and went step by step as to what gasman said to do and still no luck. The motor is a used one I got off a guy who I trust and said it ran.I haven't had the distributor out and the carb looked decent. I was told that maybe the rings are stuck to the pistons and to put oil in the cylinders but have not tried it. It has sat for a long time but I dont see any reason why I can't get it to start or even attempt to. I did as the replies stated and I can't figure it out. All I can think of is the motor is just junk. It sucks that all I need is a running motor and finish the wiring and I could be driving it this year and do more work to it this winter but I am so frustrated with it so I think I am just going to throw it in my mother-in-laws barn and go w/c next year. Thanks everyone for all the help and replies.
Author:  Dave Winterburn [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Won't Start
Wait a minite, you just said it has been sitting a long time. How long? And how old is the gas? You could be trying to run the thing on varnish. How do the plugs look? Have you tried starting fluid? If not, try it but don't go crazy with the stuff, it will wash the cylinders. Just a diferent thought. Dave W.
Author:  Baddvw [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Won't Start
I sent you a PM and I live in Minford, I can help you out if you want me to.
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