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Planning New Motor - NEED ADVICE!
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Author:  LUVSDIRT [ Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Planning New Motor - NEED ADVICE!
Over the next year or so, I plan to build a new motor for my buggy. I have a $2500 budget and a complete, running 1600 DP (bone stock from a '71 Superbeetle) to start with. The 1776 motor currently on my buggy runs great and has no problems, I just want more power and a fresh engine. My little 1776 with a single HPMX 40 and Engle 110 cam will remain untouched as a spare motor, or a possible future buggy project. 8)

Oh, by the way for all you water pumper guys, I ain't ready for no radiator! If I was building a whole new ride, then probably I would do a Subaru but not this time (don't waste your time, I know how much you LOVE yours, thanks anyway).

Okay, so here is what I have in mind; I want mostly good low-end torque. I want to be able to come off 1200 RPM and have most of the power between that and 4000. A short rod, balanced stroker, I think, maybe a 82mm x 92mm (2180cc) with 5.4 VW rods. I want a cam that you can hear but is matched to the powerband I am shooting for, same for the heads and the rest of the valve train. I will buy a new aluminum case that will swing the stroker crank, and have the rotating assembly professionally balanced providing it does not come that way. I have not decided if I will run a large single IDF ( 48 ) or duals (44s?). My buggy is a little on the heavy side due to 3/16" steel floor and skid pans and a heavy Chenowth frame.

So, whatever advice anybody has on a parts list is much appreciated. I have access to some heavy duty tools (machine shop) and have been messing with VW stuff for several years but have never built a VW motor bottom to top. I am currently reading everything I can about it.

Whacha Got?? :wink:

Thanks for the help,

Dale Hall
Author:  rockrockets1 [ Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
use 94 not 92 92 are thin wall heats up too fast
Author:  Kyle [ Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:05 pm ]
Post subject: 
my buddy doesn't really like his 2180. it revs super fast. he is usually 6000rpm before the top of the hill. he runs a 6AL box with 6000 chip and its usually poppin about midway.

i have a 2332 94x84 with stock length vw rods, 042 mofoco heads, and single webber 44. vz110 cam. most of my power is from 2000-4500. super torque monster i love it.

i don't really know what you should do i am pretty new just throwing out what we got and how it runs.

kyle
Author:  The Wild Kids [ Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
What your talking about is a good torque motor for a cam I would think the Engle 120 or something similar to it would be great. The 110 might be little for what you are describing. The 044 heads are a must too, got to be able to breath in and out. For carbs go with duals you will be able to tell the difference with the duals over a single.

The Wild Kids
Author:  LUVSDIRT [ Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Building New Motor - NEED ADVICE!
Kyle:

Did you build that yourself? Do you know what case you are using? Motor that big run okay with a single carb? (I was expecting anyone with a motor bigger than 1915 to tell me that dual carbs were the only way to go).

Thanks!

Dale Hall
Author:  sharpshooter [ Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:21 pm ]
Post subject: 
Try Tim at Southern Buggys in London Ky.606-864-2217 If you tell him your budget he can figure your parts for you and get you close to what you want,he is very reasonable on parts,he can build it or sell you the parts and he stands behind what he sells,good guy to deal with
Author:  Kyle [ Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:24 pm ]
Post subject: 
yea i guess you could say that i did. i did alot of work but muddy mutt is the one who truely did all the work. i did all the clearance work etc and he did all the tech stuff. i was there for every second of the job.

we used my stock AS-41 case. and yes it runs VERY good with single carb. i am sure there is more power to be discovered with duals but my buddy with his 2332 and dual's doesn't pull me. he says i have way more bottom end then him but he has more top. he has long rods. his power is around 4000-6500. and my heads are 042 big port.
Author:  Kyle [ Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:27 pm ]
Post subject: 
o the 2180 has a single carb also. the only person in our group of 6 has duals and thats my buddys 2332. but i am sure it makes a diff. lots more air :)

maybe go with a single and build the motor. duals can be had down the road. again this is just me talking haha i am by no means a motor builder or expert.
Author:  Roy [ Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:41 pm ]
Post subject: 
You definitely want to go with 94mm pistons. Do not consider the 92's. Crankshaft either a 82 or 84 fits nicely without a lot of trouble and minimal cam interference. You are on the right track about the shorter rods lowering the power band. I will not tell you what to do but I think a 5.4 would be ok for the 82 stroke but not for the 84 stroke. I would move up to the 5.5 at that point. The difference in powerband is minimal but the piston wear is much better. Use the chevy journal (buick) rods. H Beam rods only with ARP bolts only.
Heads and camshaft are what will make you happy or disappoint you. You have a heavy buggy so you want to select these items VERY carefully :!: The stroker crank will automatically give you torque, the heads and camshaft will determine how and when the torque curve will work for you. I have some proven secret recipe's for sale if you are interested! LOL J/K

Roy
Author:  purplerail [ Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Planning New Motor - NEED ADVICE!
[quote='LUVSDIRT']

Oh, by the way for all you water pumper guys, I ain't ready for no radiator! If I was building a whole new ride, then probably I would do a Subaru but not this time (don't waste your time, I know how much you LOVE yours, thanks anyway).[/quote]

could not have said it better a good 1915 with duel 44s hard to beat
Author:  The Wild Kids [ Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:17 am ]
Post subject: 
I agree with Purplerail. I have a 1915 with dual weber 40's and I can't say enough about how good it is. I have considered going to a 2275 but just haven't had the money too.

The Wild Kids
Author:  BUGGYMAN [ Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:22 am ]
Post subject:  engine
A 1915 wtih a good set of weber 44s or dells is a very good motor. I know a guy that ran this setup for 7 years before he had to tear it back down to freshen it up. I have a 1915 in my 4 seater and it really screams, but it has a good set of heads, 110 cam, and 1.25 rockers. Duall 44 webers on top as well, I couldn't be more pleased with it.


Donnie
Author:  bruce 1 [ Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:56 am ]
Post subject: 
for sure use the 94's, then make that motor a 2276 or 2332, or 2387, (82, 84, 86 crank) they will all cost about the same. I would use a engle 110 or 120 cam. Like Roy said most of your power is from the heads and cam set up. So chose them with care. Duel carbs will make a big difference also but if you have the single already use it to save money, and later get duel's.
Author:  RaceBugg1098 [ Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
if i was doin it all over again, a would stick to a single carb(alot less trouble). i haev experimented with a few cams in my woods car, and i love the latest one i've tried, fk-43. it has all the low end you need and lots of top end. i think the range is around 2000-6200rpm. i have a 2332 and run pauter 1.4:1 rockers (i believe this is where the top end comes from) and 10.5:1 compression (for bottom end power). even when i am lugging up a hill (700 rpm) the motor never gives up.
Author:  chris38375 [ Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:09 pm ]
Post subject:  motor
i have a 2180 also,it has a full circle 82mm crank,stock rods,4063 bugpack cam,92 jugs,single 44 weber,042 mofoco heads,stock weight flywheel,if u want low end use stock weight flywheel and a single carb,my motor has tons of low end torque
Author:  chris38375 [ Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:12 pm ]
Post subject:  motor
and i have about .090 thosands deck height under my jugs this helps with low end torgue it lowers ur compression slighty,and i can run pump gas if i want to
Author:  Roy [ Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:34 am ]
Post subject: 
FK-42 and FK-43 are both good low end torque cams with the "right" heads. I use the FK-43 in my engine. You must check the springs and retainers for coil bind though. It pushes the limits of the stock 044 head.
Crower makes a split duration camshaft which is excellent with the VW exhaust port design. I use it in alot of engines and run it on 1.25 rockers for some extra lift. Part# 61003. Works fantastic. That is what I recommend the most. I have three woods motors using this right now and the guys love it.
Author:  Odyknuck [ Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:16 am ]
Post subject: 
Roy how would that cam work with a Turbo. What are the specs on it?
Author:  Roy [ Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:12 pm ]
Post subject: 
I will PM you with this information instead of hijacking this guy's thread.
Author:  gkeeton [ Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:15 am ]
Post subject: 
I agree with everyone that a stroker engine is the way to go, but I'm not sure what you are going to be able to get for your original budget of $2500 + your 1600DP engine. You had mentioned you wanted to get a high top aluminum case, and they're up to almost $600. If you are going to get a stroker crank, and H-beam rods, there's another $500 or so. You still don't have any, pistons, heads, or carbs. This is what I would do. I know there are a few people on the site that prefer a new case to one thats 30+ years old, but I would start by reusing your case from your 1600DP. A line bore and thrust cut, larger cylinder openings, and full flow oiling shouldn't run you more than $125. Then I would reuse the original 1600 VW crank having it balanced, or get a new forged C/W one. You could reuse the rods you have if they are good, or get a set of redone stock VW rods. Then get the 94mm cylinders to make a 1915. Then you will have some money to play with to get a set of big valved heads, and possibly have them ported. Dual carbs will give you more performance, but a single will probably require less maintanence. I would start out with a single 44 IDF/HPMX, and like Kyle said, you can always upgrade to duals later. Like Roy mentioned, a Crower 61003 or even a 61004 work extremely well. A 1915 with "044" style heads with 40X35.5 valves, Crower Cam, 9-9.5 to 1 Comp, and 44 IDF Carb is probably one of the two most popular engines that the shop I deal with, Jim's Custom VW's, builds for woodsbuggys. Like sharpshooter said, call around to some shops and see what they can give you for $2500. You can call Jim's if you like on Monday at 1-800-621-3503.
Author:  LUVSDIRT [ Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:37 am ]
Post subject: 
Yea, I have been working on the parts list afor a 2332 and 2500 bucks goes by pretty damned fast.

I like the 1915 idea, I see that there are a few companies that have 1915 kits for about $1250 that include jugs and pistons, heads, crank & rods, oil pump, gaskets, and everything you need. I could then by the 44 IDF dual carb kit and come in around $2200. However, both my engines, the 1776 on my buggy now and the 1600 DP have 10mm case studs which means (correct me if I'm wrong here) that the biggest bore is 92mm, which would mean an 1835 instead of a 1915. Hmmm, not quite as appealing. If I have to buy a new case that will go to 94mm (with 8mm studs) then there is no doubt it will be a bubbletop and get stroked. The standard AS41 case costs about as much as the bubbletop case.

I just hate the idea of grinding a stock case thin to clear the stroke. I know it's done a lot but I also know that everytime I put my foot in its ass out on the trail I will be thinking "take it easy, that case is thin at number three!"

I really don't mind spending the money, it will just take me longer to get there. Like Johnny Cash said "I got it one piece at a time...and it cost me a LOT more than a dime..." Is that how it went???

Thanks Guys,

Dale H.
Author:  pipedope [ Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:26 am ]
Post subject: 
you can still use a big stud case you have to install case savers to reduce it to a small stud.they will install them for around 30.00. that is for everything.
Author:  LUVSDIRT [ Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hmmm. Smaller case savers.

How much past 69mm stroke can I go with minimal case clearancing? How well would a 78mm stroke fit in there? A 78x94 would be a 2165. Then I could at least keep up with my best ridin' buddy, Travisdunebuggy!!

Thanks,
Dale H
Author:  pipedope [ Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
you can put any size you want to.but you wouldnt have to clearence as much with a 78mm.the bigger crank the more you have to cut.a 78mm cost as much as a 82,84,86.so why wouldnt you go bigger.if you dont want to spend alot of money or cut the block you should run a 76mm same price as stock at cb performance.
Author:  gkeeton [ Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:16 pm ]
Post subject: 
If the case has been machined for the 94mm cylinders properly you won't have to worry about it cracking or having any weak points. Some people like the 8mm head studs, and some like the 10mm head studs. There is a company that makes a 10mm insert that has an outer thread thats american, instead of metric. It ends up actually being smaller in diameter than a factory VW 8mm insert. You could get them, and still use your 10mm studs. Like pipedope mentioned, you could get a 76mm crank from CB for the same amount as a 69mm one. I don't think the CB Cranks are Nitrided on the Journals though. I would get a 74mm Empi Crank. Even though you are going a little smaller stroke, I know for sure they are Nitrided. There are different opinions on Nitrided Journals, and some people don't like Empi stuff, but that's what I would do if you want a bigger crank for tha same price as a 69 one. Also, like pipedope mentioned, a 78 is the same price as an 84, so go ahead and just get the 84 then. I would set aside around $600 to $850 for a set of ported big vavled heads. I feel this will give you the biggest bang for your buck. Smaller engines with hi-po heads usually run circles around big engines with small heads. I would use an actual CB 044 head. They flow better out of the box and have the opportunity to flow great if ported. Some companys big valve heads actually flow worse out of the box than a stock VW head. Like you said, you have to stick with your budget, or save more if your budget doesn't allow what you want.
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