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| Oil pump breaking reason. Motor trashed http://www.woodsbuggy.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16648 |
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| Author: | 2800passat [ Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Oil pump breaking reason. Motor trashed |
Someone told me today what happened to my oil pump. I did not tap the shaft in the pump gear down into the cam. It's been a long time since I have did a/c and I did not know about this new procedure. No one ever told me... That's why I share all and any info I have. I burnt someone's motor up last year with the same problem . Why in the double f cannot a seller tell us about this at the counter. 2 brand new motors destroyed. Now I need a new cam , oil pump, bearings, gasket kit, oil, rtv, line bore and crank polished, $30 running around gas. Hope I have enlightened someone, so they do not make this mistake. That's what this website is all about , is sharing our knowledge. |
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| Author: | jeff69 [ Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oil pump breaking reason. Motor trashed |
Damn that sucks was that the motor on Austin's buggy Posted using the WoodsBuggy Mobile App |
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| Author: | NRIbuggys [ Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oil pump breaking reason. Motor trashed |
[quote="2800passat"]Someone told me today what happened to my oil pump. I did not tap the shaft in the pump gear down into the cam. This don't sound right.... I've never seen or heard or any one doing this. I'm sure the shaft inside the gear that goes in the cam is NOT suppose to move/slide. The reason I say that is if it did what would keep it from spinning inside the gear or over time sliding back out????? Posted using the WoodsBuggy Mobile App |
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| Author: | RaceBugg1098 [ Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oil pump breaking reason. Motor trashed |
i have never done or heard of that |
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| Author: | ron [ Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oil pump breaking reason. Motor trashed |
RaceBugg1098 wrote: i have never done or heard of that X2 , I just make sure I eye the slot well enough to put the pump in the bole to get it started , and then if its not lined up it won't pull up to the case !  Posted using the WoodsBuggy Mobile App |
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| Author: | turboblue [ Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oil pump breaking reason. Motor trashed |
RaceBugg1098 wrote: i have never done or heard of that X3 Never ever heard of that. |
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| Author: | Ibanidiot2 [ Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oil pump breaking reason. Motor trashed |
Wrong oil pump? Look this up on YouTube. Air Cooled VW Cams and Oil Pumps and how to tell the difference. Posted using the WoodsBuggy Mobile App |
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| Author: | 2800passat [ Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oil pump breaking reason. Motor trashed |
Y'all are thinking just like I did. Robert Farley and Joe Morticiah straightened me out on this. They both build motors a lot. The best way to do it , is lay the oil pump in 1 case halve with no crank, just a cam. Then install the driver gear. Then knock the shaft thru the gear til it goes deep into the cam. But do the knocking in a work bench vice! This way you can visually see the depth of the key. I have burnt up 2 motors this way recently and I cannot believe either supplier let me know this. The 1st motor was sold off cheap. Major loss! It was a stock 1600 in a beetle and had 1 mile on it. Austin had about 30 rides since 2010. Apparently as soon as he went to dual carbs and got that extra 1000 rpm, the shallow oil pump drive broke and subsequently smeared and destroyed the cam slot as well. His new block has extensive thrust cut damage awell as the crank. The dowel pin on the flywheel bearing turned sideways and bulged metal and even smeared 2 flywheel shims! Both crank and case must be be turned. And new bearings, gaskets, oil, rtv etc. Look at the 100's of people and motors running around out there that don't know . Some may go, some may blow. Chinese Cheese! |
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| Author: | 2800passat [ Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oil pump breaking reason. Motor trashed |
Solution: Pull oil plate off and hammer in shaft. 1st, drain oil, pull pulley and maybe header. But..... , it could be a bad fix if your cam slot and key already has a worn edge.Do yer own thinkin on this one.  I guess to know for sure, remove and inspect the key b4 tapping.I guess I'd leave an old proven motor alone. Basicly, if the key has any twist or wear I'd leave it be. Or get a new shaft!
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| Author: | 2800passat [ Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oil pump breaking reason. Motor trashed |
I just came in from working on a a/c. I have the case open with cam installed. Oil pump laying in place. I drove the oil pump shaft up to the cam about an 1/8" or more. Then got another old twisted key shaft off the shelf and drove it up about the same. That's a lot of meat, insurance and assurance when it is pumping the life blood thru several $1k's of motor and stuck off in a valley. DRIVE THE KEY IN TO THE SLOT, FLUSH! This is why we see old oil pumps with the key worn and the cam shaft hole worn as well. BULLETIN...BULLETIN...BULLETIN..lol |
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| Author: | kevin f [ Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oil pump breaking reason. Motor trashed |
i set the drive gear depth on every motor i build. They never seat all the up like they should. Ive seen several motors ruined from this not being done. It can even happen on a dry sump pump to. |
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| Author: | Roy [ Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oil pump breaking reason. Motor trashed |
So yall are saying that the shaft that has the gear on it is movable in the gear if you tap on it with a hammer in a vice? Is it a keyed fit in the pump gear or is it just a press fit? Once you move it doesn't this hurt the integrity of the fit? I would be concerned about hammering the drive shaft out of the gear 1/8" Then later it might spin on the shaft? I understand the drive shaft does not always fit nice and deep down into the cam slot, and I understand that some of the latest junk parts are worse. Couldn't you set the depth then tig weld the gear on to the shaft to hold it in that spot forever?? This is some good information yall are sharing here. I haven't built a bug motor in a few years. |
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| Author: | 2800passat [ Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oil pump breaking reason. Motor trashed |
Just tap it til it hits bottom. Installed in the case half. It's a press fit and this is the correct procedure. Wiggle your cam a little and make sure the saddle bearing don't rub to hard. |
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| Author: | turboblue [ Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oil pump breaking reason. Motor trashed |
Just an FYI, CB pumps have the gear keyed to the shaft. |
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| Author: | jimp [ Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oil pump breaking reason. Motor trashed |
Noteworthy: 1) The press fit of the oil pump gear to it's driven shaft is similar to the fit that is on millions of cars and truck's power steering hydraulic pump. If the pulley of these pumps moves on the shaft, it is probably a rare occurrence. The oil pump gear would have to be hard against it's cover for this to occur in the VW engine? 2) The VW camshaft must be free to "float" back and forth between the faces of it's dual thrust bearing. This must be checked with the oil pump in place and the oil pump cover in place. You should record this endplay in your build blueprint spec sheet. 3) The precision fit of the oil pump tang to the slot in the camshaft is not only a depth spec but a matching width specification. Too much play or "slop" is undesirable and limits the life of the assembly. 4) The SHAPE of the tang and the SHAPE of the slot in the camshaft is also critical. If there is too much taper in either part of this matching set, you should reject the offending component and try another manufacturer. 5) Forget about "modifying" the slot or the tang by tig welding cladding. This can make a part brittle, even with follow up tempering or annealing. I am sure that it can be done, but this is highly specialized and a ri$k not worth taking. 6) Likewise, if the fit of the tang to the camshaft is TOO close, you run the risk of side loading the oil pump shaft in it's bore. This can cause premature wear of the bore in the aluminum oil pump housing. The subsequent looseness of the shaft in it's bore can give you the worst case scenario of tang cold-working and failure. |
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| Author: | texasbuggy [ Fri Aug 28, 2015 11:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oil pump breaking reason. Motor trashed |
I just went out to the shop and looked at an engine I have tore down and my concern on this is if you are driving the oil pump drive pin into the face of the cam, aren't you diving the cam back against the face of the cams trust bearing, and possibly against the plug in the back of the case. And if you are wouldn't this cause premature wear of the thrust bearing. |
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| Author: | jimp [ Sat Aug 29, 2015 11:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oil pump breaking reason. Motor trashed |
A camshaft has to have some endplay. Check to be sure that the camshaft bumps against the back thrust face of the flanged cam bearing and against the front thrust face of the flanged cam bearing. This travel is your camshaft endplay specification. It should match the mathematics of your part spec sheet: Subtract the measured width of the cam thrust bearing from matching slot width of the camshaft. The camshaft should never come into contact with the plug in the case nor should the camshaft force the oil pump gear up against the cover of the oil pump. |
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