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Volkswankle, a very confused project
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Author:  ducktape [ Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:18 am ]
Post subject:  Volkswankle, a very confused project
I've broken it more than I've built it so far. Here's how it looked when I got it.

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Berrien Shortback built/titled in '81. It had been rolled at least once. The car came without a motor, but with a road-hard swingaxle tranny. I took 1600 single-port off my Baja bug, hung it off the back and beat the car senseless on dirt and gravel for a couple months. It was basically a yard-cart with a license plate.



When the transmission let go I took it all apart and it hasn't been back together in almost a year. I'm still not sure exactly what I'm doing with it. I'm tempted to buy some tree-bars and an engine cage as I've already swapped-ends into a tree once. It's a little too anemic to be a woodsbuggy, but I suppose I could try to set the cow-pasture world speed record. :lol:

Swapped it from swingaxle to IRS; my first attempt to ruin what was otherwise a perfectly good car.
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Shortly after finishing that, i bought a junkyard Mazda 12a from an early RX7. I did a softseal-only rebuild, with a mild port job. The short-block with flywheel weighed 200lbs. The motor should make about 120hp.

Would appreciate ideas on bracing and gusseting. It's all 30 year-old 095 wall tubing, and feels like the front-end is made out of pipe-cleaners at speed.
Author:  kybuggy1 [ Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Volkwankle, a very confused project
Looks like you done great job on your IRS conversion!

Just noticed you are in Louisville!!
Put a 6 rib in that thing and some tree bars and engine cage.
We got a decent little test n tune spot off Bearcamp rd. Gotta have an engine cage, its straight up a lot!
I'd love see how that Wankle does in the woods!
VERY light. Very clean looking.
Wonder how expensive to get about 200 reliable ft lbs of torque out of one?


PM sent, Larry
Author:  ducktape [ Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Volkwankle, a very confused project
kybuggy1 wrote:
Looks like you done great job on your IRS conversion!

Just noticed you are in Louisville!!
Put a 6 rib in that thing and some tree bars and engine cage.
We got a decent little test n tune spot off Bearcamp rd. Gotta have an engine cage, its straight up a lot!
I'd love see how that Wankle does in the woods!
VERY light. Very clean looking.
Wonder how expensive to get about 200 reliable ft lbs of torque out of one?

PM sent, Larry


You really can't get much torque out of them without a turbo, honestly. I had a turbo 13b in a road-car once that made nearly 200ft/lbs at peak, but that was in the neighborhood of 7000rpm. That ended up costing about $4k for everything, and was mostly luck finding parts from abandoned projects. There's just not enough displacement to make that much torque naturally-aspirated. Especially with mine being a 1.1 liter, you really have to rev the piss out of it to get it to move. The good news about that is that it's designed to be flogged, so you can redline the motor all day long without hurting it. The bad news is that it's murder on VW trannies. There's a lot of rotating mass for such a small motor.

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Still only 230lbs in this configuration without distributor, filter, and belts. It's getting into type-4 engine weight territory.
Author:  ImmortalSoul219 [ Sat Sep 26, 2009 7:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Volkwankle, a very confused project
that rotary looks sweet painted like that. nice job.
Author:  DVS1 [ Sat Sep 26, 2009 9:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Volkwankle, a very confused project
Awesome job!! What is the redline on a rotory? 12,000rpm? 13,000rpm?
Author:  davehix [ Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Volkwankle, a very confused project
Is that slick bottom way to install torsion?
Author:  ducktape [ Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Volkwankle, a very confused project
DVS1 wrote:
Awesome job!! What is the redline on a rotory? 12,000rpm? 13,000rpm?


Only a wild build with some hardened internals and an extreme port would rev that high. A stockish motor will rev to 8k all day long with no ill effects, and can occasionally make brief trips above 9k. There's no rev-limiter and the power doesn't fall off dramatically past HP peak, so you can pretty much keep your foot in it until you get bored with the noise. My motor is actually dialed back a bit from the norm. The intake runners are long and constrictive, i'm using a full-length header with unmodified exhaust port timing. HP peak should be around 7k, which is fairly conservative. In the end I'm sacrificing the atmospheric HP peak for nice big mid-range punch.

davehix wrote:
Is that slick bottom way to install torsion?


Yes. It's causing problems now with up-travel on my 3x3s. I'm still glad I did it that way as the oil-pan would be dangerously low if I hadn't.

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Transmission is an 002, with a 5.86? R&P, Superdiff, and all 4 Weedle gears. Standard Kennedy engine adapter and flywheel. Had to shorten the input shaft about 3/4" to get it all together. I used a McKenzie's 10-degree mount kit to get a little more oil-pan clearance.
Author:  gasman [ Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Volkwankle, a very confused project
that ought to be one helluva wheelie machine.i like the way you painted it up looks cool.does the rotary engine have much low end torque and power,or everything come on at high rpm's? just wondering what kind of power band they run.chad :mrgreen:
Author:  ducktape [ Sat Sep 26, 2009 7:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Volkwankle, a very confused project
gasman wrote:
that ought to be one helluva wheelie machine.i like the way you painted it up looks cool.does the rotary engine have much low end torque and power,or everything come on at high rpm's? just wondering what kind of power band they run.chad :mrgreen:


It depends on the configuration, but they're not torquey motors by nature. I've seen a mild-port non-turbo motor make 181whp/134ftlbs @7k, with most of the power north of 4k rpm. With a wild port job you can get over 200hp/150ft lbs, but it shifts the powerband up even higher. The only way to match the torque of a decent stroked VW motor is to turbo it, and even then you're looking at mid-range/top-end power.

Here's a dyno graph from a big port/big turbo motor I was using in a street car in '06. You can see even on a built motor the torque really doesn't come on until 4k, and peaks at about 6500rpm. This was a pretty pricey motor at around $6k and required a standalone programmable ECU and a couple trips to the dyno.
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Of course, the motor in my buggy won't even be close. I'm looking for about 120hp @ 7000 rpm, and maybe 70-80ftlbs @ 5500rpm. I honestly don't know how this motor will do with the gear-set and R&P I have. I did my homework, but I'm not the best at maths. :D
Author:  gasman [ Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Volkwankle, a very confused project
i barley can get around at about 2500 rpms without spilling my beer,running around at 7000 rpms all the time would for sure cut into my drinking.lol.but for a trail buggy/woods buggy you might be running a little much,if you got to wind out at 7grand to get in your powerband that 3 rib and that short of a buggy you will either be flipping it off or coasting it off if you catch tractoin on a steep hill.hope im wrong,that might be the best setup going and we just dont know it.chad :mrgreen:
Author:  nitro_mudder [ Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Volkwankle, a very confused project
Well get it done and running, beat on it a couple times, then let us know. Like Chad said Might be great who knows. But looks cool, and I like that it's different. Being Normal scares me!
Author:  ducktape [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Volkswankle, a very confused project
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3x3's and 930's in process. Expecting around 11" of travel, most of it droop. I'm thinking about buying a coilover front beam.
Author:  Dave_in_Florida [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Volkswankle, a very confused project
You're probably going to want to put some more bracing around that torsion housing. A friend of mine has a Berrien 952 (identical to yours, but a long back) and we put it in my garage to put the IRS pivots on the swingaxle torsion. When I looked closely at it, the torsion was almost ripped off of the frame at those "C" shaped plates. The torsion was ripped away about 3/4 of the way around on both sides. The torsion really isn't welded at the tubes, just at those "C" plates, which allowed it to move around until it started to crack. Granted, he liked to jump his buggy every now and then, but not very high, and he hasn't owned it very long.

We ran some bars diagonally from the gas tank mounting area running down and forward to the torsion. Basically, where your frame ends. It looks like you could do the same thing.
Author:  ducktape [ Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Volkswankle, a very confused project
Waiting on limiting straps to finish the rear. I'm going to use some Mazda aluminum 4POT calipers I had laying around. Ought to stop real good.

I'm thinking about buying this:
http://www.pacificcustoms.com/AC498900.html
Author:  bluebuggy [ Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Volkswankle, a very confused project
^^ that would be bad ass :D
Author:  kybuggy1 [ Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Volkswankle, a very confused project
$2K , no rotors, and HEAVY??? :shock:
You sure you're from KY?? :lol:

Jus playin ,if u like it, go for it. 8)
Author:  ducktape [ Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Volkswankle, a very confused project
kybuggy1 wrote:
$2K , no rotors, and HEAVY??? :shock:
You sure you're from KY?? :lol:

Jus playin ,if u like it, go for it. 8)


I know, but I want coilovers and enough travel to match the rear. If I take this step, I might end up going coilover on the rear as well.

PS: Found a pic of the car with the body work, figured I'd post it. Not sure I like it... Looks too much like a soap-box derby racer. :lol:

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Author:  ducktape [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Volkswankle, a very confused project
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Not as much travel as I'd hoped out of the rear thanks to the torsion housing location.

Time to buy the beam. I think I'm going to buy a Warrior non-coilover with 8" towers and 2-1/4" longer arms.
Author:  ImmortalSoul219 [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Volkswankle, a very confused project
looking sweet. waiting on some running vids! :D
Author:  ducktape [ Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Volkswankle, a very confused project
A-arm suspension finally showed. Motor is coming along. It's cold outside.

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Author:  Firebug [ Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Volkswankle, a very confused project
Man,,,that is neat. We gotta have a big Buggy Meet at someones local Hooters this winter to show that kinda stuff off to each other.
Author:  sawyer [ Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Volkswankle, a very confused project
Brother that thing is sweet i met a guy at silver lake this year he ran a rotory i just love the sound 6000 and up i had a 79 rx7 i think a 12a motor not sure i broke more rear ends and trannies than any other car i have owened that motor took some abuse tach didnt work but you could go from wide open in 4th shove the clutch in hold her on the floor smash her down into 2nd and let her fly the car would turn around backwards and just BOIL the tires off going backwards at about 60 haha Young And Dumb no one ever got hurt I ended up putting a pin hole in the oil cooler lost all the oil then played demo with it oh the good old days best $150 car i ever owned
Author:  ridenrace6 [ Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Volkswankle, a very confused project
Firebug wrote:
Man,,,that is neat. We gotta have a big Buggy Meet at someones local Hooters this winter to show that kinda stuff off to each other.


i think kieth mitchlle and them guys done that a couple years ago down at tuscaloosa or wherever the hooters is in that area but not sure how it turned out

also the rocket city rock crawlers do a get together/show at the hooters in huntsville with a pretty good turn out on a yearly basis if im not mistaken at least i know ive seen them there 2 or three times in the past 2 or 3 years
Author:  ducktape [ Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Volkswankle, a very confused project
Looking like it's going to be a while before I can finish it. I was laid-off on December 1st after 7 years of employment, and prospects aren't great for finding a job anytime soon. This job market is TOUGH.

I still need rear shocks, some coilover spring plates, a DECENT muffler and collector (noise is a factor), some limiting straps, and some 1.5" steel doughnuts to make the hard-piping for the coolant lines. Trying not to cheap-skate out just to get it running. Sucks that I'm 95% done... I was hoping to tow it out west for vacation in '10. :(

BTW: complete Jamar beam FS, make offer.
Author:  aboone993 [ Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Volkswankle, a very confused project
where did you get the a-arm front end from ?
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