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Rail Buggy Upgrade
http://www.woodsbuggy.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=13195		 Page 1 of 19
Author:  myrddin [ Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:05 am ]
Post subject:  Rail Buggy Upgrade
OK, getting close to build time (or rebuild time I guess)... So far I have a nice set of Dual pivot arms from Todd at averysaircooled great guy and nice product... Arms were built for bus stubs and their own wilwood rear bus disk brake kit (pics will come). Also ordered a set of 12 inch Fox Emulsion coilovers for the arms. Have 930 stubs and flanges on the way as well. lots of stuff to figure out and I will post what I have done when I get the time to work on it. The shock placement will be hard with me not having a welder (anyone make house calls :) ) but I will figure it out.

This is a before shot, I hope the after looks nice.. Still looking for the right wheels... After the rear has been setup, I will start transforming the front as well.

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This is an image of the arms, real pics will follow...
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Author:  myrddin [ Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
Well today I decided to start mocking up some of my new parts... I ended up getting my dual pivot arms (made for a bus torsion) and 930 stub and flange from Todd at Averysaircooled, he has been really helpful even responds to my questions on the weekends and nights... also really good with helping me understand how to install the parts. Hands down some of the best quality and customer service I have ever had... So on to the parts...

As you can see here I have added the torsion delete plates...
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Here you can see the work ahead, the PO did not cut all the frame parts out, and these arms will not clear them so I need to gut it all out and clean it up.
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This is the arm sitting in place... I think I have the wrong bushings so this is as far as I will get with the moc up... But plenty of frame work ahead.
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Once I get the frame clean I will post pics, looks like I need to clear out the frame parts and cut the shock mounts off at the torsion housing just after the delete plates...

More to come
Author:  Rick [ Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
what are those arms 2x, 3x,?
Author:  myrddin [ Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
Arms are 3x3... will run Fox Emulsion coil-overs with them...
Author:  Rick [ Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
is your tranny pushed forward a bunch? the angle between the tranns and the arm seem to be a lot
Author:  myrddin [ Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
Out of cutting disks... this is where I am on the drivers side:
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Will try to get the other side cut out tomorrow, and then clean it all up...

More to come
Author:  fortydegnorth [ Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
Looking good! Those are some nice looking arms. I really like the heim joint on one side so you can adjust it to be aligned. Wish I would have done that. :roll: Looks like a nice ride. Keep the pics coming and updates.
Author:  myrddin [ Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
Thanks man... I like the Arms... They are really nice, Averysaircooled makes a front end to match, I may do that in the spring... Today I was able to get the other side done... didn't have time to do as much as I had planned but its coming alone... I am thinking I will need some bracing in the back, what do you guys think?... I have each side cut off (except the short pipe) and now I need to grind the rest flat.. so once I get the time to start that I will post agn how it turns out. I also have some motor parts on the way as well... so I will try not to get side tracked...

Pics showing where I am:

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Once I get it all ground down and painted to keep it clean I need to finish mocking up the back end and then find someone to weld up some shock mounts and might get some extra bracing.. not sure on that one yet...

More to come... might tinker a bit more tomorrow...
Author:  fortydegnorth [ Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
I would definitely run some more bracing from the torsion housing to the rest of the frame. I didn't use a stock torsion but it's still a tube supporting the suspension. This is how I did mine.

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Author:  myrddin [ Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
Does someone rent a welder? I may just need to take it to someone to knock out the reinforcement and shock mounts... I don't have a way to bend tube or get it cut right for welding.. I can weld... but have no welder... Thanks for the pic, looks like you have to upright supports on top of the tube and also a support that comes off the trans tube to the frame (this one must have a bend in it to get it to work...
Author:  fortydegnorth [ Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
I'm sure some local rental places would rent a welder. To cut the tube all you really need is a sawzall, or a cut-off wheel on an angle grinder, hacksaw, bandsaw, etc. Cutting it isn't too bad. Grinder will notch it well enough with a little time. You could make some mockup bends with welding wire, coat hanger or whatever and take it to a shop to have a couple pieces bent, then cut and notch to fit. Post up where you are and someone may be in the neighborhood that's willing to lend a welder and some help. I bet the shop you got those trailing arms from would do it for you reasonably.
Author:  myrddin [ Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
Where would i get the tube for me to try this with? I know I could get the triangulated pieces in because they would be straight... long as I can figure out how to shape the ends so I get a good weld... Its the tube that would go from rail to the trans tube that I am sure needs a bend in it that I am not so sure about...
Author:  fortydegnorth [ Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
We have several suppliers around here but I'm assuming any buggy shop would have some or try steel suppliers in your area. I used 1.5" .095 wall ERW (Electric Resistance Welded). A lot of guys use DOM (Drawn Over Mandrel) tubing and thicker wall, like .120. I think you'd be just fine with 1.5" .095. Making the tubing fit the other tube isn't that complicated. Notchers just use a hole saw in a jig. You could probably use a hole saw but for the few joints you need grinding would be more than enough. Just grind a "U" into the tube so it fits around the intersecting tube. if it's on an angle one side will obviously go deeper than the other side of the tube. Someone close has a bender I'm sure. I'm just outside of Dayton Oh and would help but I bet Drew's Offroad or a buggy shop close to you would bend something for you. Search around online some and maybe someone sells pre-bent pieces that you could make work. Are you sure they need bent?
Author:  myrddin [ Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
I am not 100% sure I need bent tube... I will work on figuring that out this week... I did find this though... Looks like a custom tube kit for a custom torshion.

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Torsion-Housing-Installation-Kit-p/5519-12.htm

You think it's worth a shot? Or is it not what I need?
Author:  fortydegnorth [ Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
try to figure out exactly what you need and go from there. If it "needs" to be bent so that it meets up with that short piece of tube hanging down from your top rail, I'd just cut that off flush and grind it smooth again so you can just run a straight piece back up to that area from the torsion housing. If you decide you need bent pieces let me know what you need. I think I have some bent pieces floating around that may work and if not I may have enough straight left to bend you something and ship it. All you'd have to do is cut to fit and then weld. I wouldn't pay $200 for that kit if all you need is some support added support. This can be done much cheaper than that. I'll look today and see what I have at the shop.
Author:  myrddin [ Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
Man... That would be really cool... I will take a better look tonight... I am ok with cutting that short bar off... My concern is the one that would need to go from the trans tube to the rail side... I will get some pics and see what I can do for moc up.

Thanks man....
Author:  myrddin [ Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
I looked and I am pretty sure that the support on the torsion tube to the frame can be straight (couple of 1 footers and a couple of 12 inches - give or take) the one I am not sure of is the trans tube to frame side... I need to get my arms mocked up before I will know for sure... it looks like most people do have a bent in this one though...

What if I do something like this guy did: (I would cut out that short pipe)...
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Author:  fortydegnorth [ Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
I think that picture shows a good example of what can be done. The tube from the transmission "frame horns" up to the top rail is usually bent on the bottom to allow room to get the engine/transmission in and out easier. I'm sure if you wanted you could use a straight tube, if it clears everything.
Author:  myrddin [ Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
OK found to possible ways to get the tube...

1. find local race car guy (not much luck on this yet)
2. Ebay - 4130 - NORM CHROM MOLY STEEL TUBING 1.5" x .095 x 8'
3. Ebay - 1-1/2" OD x 48"-Long Dom Seamless Round Tube .120" Wall-->1.5" OD x .120" DOM
4. Ebay (better deal I guess) 1-1/2" OD x 84"-Long Dom Seamless Round Tube .120" Wall-->1.5" OD x .120" DOM

I measured mine and it looks like the majority of it is 1.5 OD (no idea how thick) I read somewhere that the recommendation goes as follows:

I personally think 1.75 x .095 (DOM) is the best compromise between strength vs. weight vs. joint/welding area (for a full-size buggy)....
for a mini/midi I would use 1.5 x .095 for the cage with 1.5 x .120 lower main rails and 1 x .095 for webbing... preferable DOM for its higher strength and uniform.
you could do some of the webbing with .083 ... but IMHO the weight saving is minimal ... and welding same wall thickness tubing to each other is a lot easier if you’re a novice welder


Should I go for 2 or 3 or 4? or post for scraps? I think I need 2 sections about 2 + foot, and 2 sections about 16 inches and 2 more about 12 inches... would like a little longer so I can try not to screw it up. I may get some PVC and mock up the tube I need.

let me know... for 8 foot of the chrom moly he wants about 62 bucks I think it was. For the other it was about 33.00 for 4 foot... the 7 footer would be 59.00 (trying to get a better deal or combined shipping though).


thanks
Author:  Sandbar Norm [ Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
myrddin wrote:
OK found to possible ways to get the tube...

1. find local race car guy (not much luck on this yet)
2. Ebay - 4130 - NORM CHROM MOLY STEEL TUBING 1.5" x .095 x 8'
3. Ebay - 1-1/2" OD x 48"-Long Dom Seamless Round Tube .120" Wall-->1.5" OD x .120" DOM
4. Ebay (better deal I guess) 1-1/2" OD x 84"-Long Dom Seamless Round Tube .120" Wall-->1.5" OD x .120" DOM

I measured mine and it looks like the majority of it is 1.5 OD (no idea how thick) I read somewhere that the recommendation goes as follows:

I personally think 1.75 x .095 (DOM) is the best compromise between strength vs. weight vs. joint/welding area (for a full-size buggy)....
for a mini/midi I would use 1.5 x .095 for the cage with 1.5 x .120 lower main rails and 1 x .095 for webbing... preferable DOM for its higher strength and uniform.
you could do some of the webbing with .083 ... but IMHO the weight saving is minimal ... and welding same wall thickness tubing to each other is a lot easier if you’re a novice welder


Should I go for 2 or 3 or 4? or post for scraps? I think I need 2 sections about 2 + foot, and 2 sections about 16 inches and 2 more about 12 inches... would like a little longer so I can try not to screw it up. I may get some PVC and mock up the tube I need.

let me know... for 8 foot of the chrom moly he wants about 602 bucks I think it was. For the other it was about 33.00 for 4 foot... the 7 footer would be 59.00 (trying to get a better deal or combined shipping though).


thanks



Try Summit Racing,
I bought some 1.5 x .095 x 4' and a few days later 1.5 x .120 x 8'. Both were on my door step 3 days after I order them. $5 bucks to ship each. Summit charges $8 extra for handling charge for the 8' pc. I was ok with that cause I wanted it on Fri. and I placed my order on Wed. You may be able save by combining shipping.
Norm
Author:  myrddin [ Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
thanks man... about what did you pay for it? I looked on Summit Racing and cant seem to find Steel Tubing?? Still looking.
Author:  fortydegnorth [ Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
No steel yards or suppliers by you? Around here I can get 1.5" .095 wall for about a $1 a foot if I remember right. They cut to whatever length you want but it usually comes in 24' sticks.
Author:  Sandbar Norm [ Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
myrddin wrote:
thanks man... about what did you pay for it? I looked on Summit Racing and cant seem to find Steel Tubing?? Still looking.


Try this,
http://www.summitracing.com/search/Part ... 2f2+tubing

If you can find a steel supplier, they will have a better price as Fortydegnorth said.
Author:  myrddin [ Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
Nice... Thanks, I do see it now. The guy eBay gave me a cut in price so I took it for now... But I am looking at local steel yards (not sure where one is). And the summit prices are a few bucks less than the eBay guy. So I guess I will work it out... I just wanted to put it behind me... I have 2 - 7 footers on the way... I think that will cover me for now... But I am already looking at other areas I can reinforce.
Author:  myrddin [ Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rail Buggy Upgrade
Well I started grinding the passenger side today... Just about done, but less than satisfied I can see why people like the custom tube... Cutting and grinding leaves the tube some what unfinished looking... But I will keep messing with it. One more side to go and I still need to cut the short tubes off and clean that up as well. Also waiting on the bushings so I can mount the arms and moc up some tubes to cut... Which will be interesting, all I have is a grinder and some cutoff wheels.... But should be fine... Hard part will be how to cut so it will sit well and even....

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