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improvements for next year
http://www.woodsbuggy.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10521		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  jesse [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:47 pm ]
Post subject:  improvements for next year
this is not ment to start a fight im just trying to throw around some ideas i think would be nice to see and if anyone else has any put them down maybe they will take them and use them



first you will never make everyone happy but to make it more fair for the guys that don't have the ky 1 seaters or the things like the guy that won you should use the same hills from this season so they all rdy a little rutted and beat up or something else that aint fresh cut cause if you use fresh cut ones every time you might as well give the winner this year it next year if he plans to show up to them all cause at least a more beaten path will leave more room for mistakes and maybe give someone else a chance it dosent have to be a make or break and it dont have to be fresh cut for blasting the size of the hills are fine they just nee to be more beaten and less fresh so theirs more room for error. i think the way the comps are run are good Marty and everyone involved dose a great job the classes are ok i would not change it and i would get rid of qualifying and just draw for your turn so it moves a lil faster and you don't kill the hill even more before you start if its going to be one that's not fresh which it should be to leave more room for mistakes and give the people who may not be the fastest but are use to climbing hills like that every weekend a shot cause how many people here go climb fresh hills every weekend here in bama we don't and most all vids but the hill climbs they don't its just a thought but i think would improve the hill climbs alot and maybe get the people that don't like the hills or don't get in them cause they know they wont win in their and having a chance at it



this is what i feel would get more involved and actually be a lil more fair case it will make you slow down a little make you have to drive more
Author:  jesse [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: improvements for next year
i know theirs a tab for people suggestions i just like to see what everyone has to say and their ideas as well
Author:  Firebug [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: improvements for next year
The reason for the Tab above is to stop a bunch of debating that is counterproductive. Keep it to a suggestion level,,not a debate. Your suggestions are more likely to be considered up there.

Here are some of the ideas I am considering....The idea of qualifying is to be grouped with buggys of your speed. At the finale I barely made the Aclass, I coulda sandbagged a little and made the Bclass and been in the money as long as I sandbagged enough to miss the trees. :oops: . If I get to pick a class I will pick the one I know I can win. Next year we will have 3 classes. Each class will get One good full pull qualifying run,,,one good full pull class run. You can get up to 2 runs to get a full pull. If the timer fails you will run till you get a good run.We will make all efforts to have a make it or brake it class and consider bolts in this class for the parks that allow them. This group will cut their own hill the way they want it. Again,,these are ideas.
Author:  Firebug [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: improvements for next year
Another key thing to mention is that sometime I need to change things. For example,,at the finale we had so many buggys that I felt I needed to speed things up so I limited class runs to one,,and took out a dogleg in the A hill. I will reserve the right to alter our hills and rules to a very limited degree. I am working on bigger payouts too.
Author:  Huey [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: improvements for next year
I would like to see pictures of the winning buggies along with the winners. Maybe do something similar to buggy of the month. This would allow everyone to see what it takes to win :)
Author:  bmoore [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: improvements for next year
Firebug wrote:
The reason for the Tab above is to stop a bunch of debating that is counterproductive. Keep it to a suggestion level,,not a debate. Your suggestions are more likely to be considered up there.

Here are some of the ideas I am considering....The idea of qualifying is to be grouped with buggys of your speed. At the finale I barely made the Aclass, I coulda sandbagged a little and made the Bclass and been in the money as long as I sandbagged enough to miss the trees. :oops: . If I get to pick a class I will pick the one I know I can win. Next year we will have 3 classes. Each class will get One good full pull qualifying run,,,one good full pull class run. You can get up to 2 runs to get a full pull. If the timer fails you will run till you get a good run.We will make all efforts to have a make it or brake it class and consider bolts in this class for the parks that allow them. This group will cut their own hill the way they want it. Again,,these are ideas.


i know we dont need a debate. but i do like these ideas marty! all trash talk aside, this would rid the excuses of the chain drives :wink: ( i would love to see em there regardless who is driveing :D )
Author:  Firebug [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: improvements for next year
bmoore wrote:
Firebug wrote:
The reason for the Tab above is to stop a bunch of debating that is counterproductive. Keep it to a suggestion level,,not a debate. Your suggestions are more likely to be considered up there.

Here are some of the ideas I am considering....The idea of qualifying is to be grouped with buggys of your speed. At the finale I barely made the Aclass, I coulda sandbagged a little and made the Bclass and been in the money as long as I sandbagged enough to miss the trees. :oops: . If I get to pick a class I will pick the one I know I can win. Next year we will have 3 classes. Each class will get One good full pull qualifying run,,,one good full pull class run. You can get up to 2 runs to get a full pull. If the timer fails you will run till you get a good run.We will make all efforts to have a make it or brake it class and consider bolts in this class for the parks that allow them. This group will cut their own hill the way they want it. Again,,these are ideas.


i know we dont need a debate. but i do like these ideas marty! all trash talk aside, this would rid the excuses of the chain drives :wink: ( i would love to see em there regardless who is driveing :D )

Me too :!:
Author:  passat2800 [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: improvements for next year
I wish I could go to yall's big events even if I just stayed behind a cold one all day.Oh and I love yalls pics n flicks!Next March I want to put together a ride here in Fultondale Al.We have a valley here that is like descending into hell.No one has been down and simply back out of Wendy Hollow in 4 years that I know of.What I want to do is make all types of climbs.Washed out,rocky gouged out, straight up loose dirt,mossy wet rock,grassy but start off out of a ditch then straight up.Every one puts $20 in a hat, parks their buggy (in the valley) and walks far off to a gathering point.Shotguns 3 beers (optional) then when the cameras are rolling someone rings a bell and it's on.Run to yer ride and fire that mother up!1st ,2nd and 3rd vehicles out by any means necessary divides the pot evenly.3 hours later we will do it all again.It's not all about winning, it's about fun.I mean , what will $20 get you these days?Some skrony buggy will get in front of some nitrous fire breathing machine and the machine will just have to use him for traction or pick a different route.It may be a tactic but it is all in fun.We'll all laugh about it at the top.There are 7 climbs out of Wendy Hollow.And they are all ugly!
Author:  jesse [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: improvements for next year
i want another shot at it last time i had to take my motor and trans out at the bottom and put a new tranny in cause it busted mine
Author:  bluebuggy [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: improvements for next year
i think the hardcore guys that make it out to every one should be in there own class and maybe a new guys class also maybe a open class with a higher payout like $50 or more buy ins winner takes all :lol: but not for points
Author:  wildwillie [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: improvements for next year
i like the idea of no qulifing hill just buy into the class you would like to run a or b .having two hills a class hill b class hill every one get two runs and only pay back 1,2,3 place in each class pay out should come from entrys& sponsers
Author:  harry89 [ Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: improvements for next year
i think we should all get together n have a big ride
Author:  wildwillie [ Sat Oct 23, 2010 6:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: improvements for next year
i think thats what we all would like to do.so we need to shoot marty so ideas to make thing go a bit faster abit more fair for the every day buggy rider and to get the big boy 500hp chain drives in to them and put some more gas money in the winners pocket .it would be nice have some time to check out some of thies park &do some trail ridin..and im shure he dont need to know what you didnt like about the last hill climbs but what you would like to see in next years hillclimbs..........................................
Author:  passat2800 [ Sat Oct 23, 2010 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: improvements for next year
I think Marty and these events are awesome and he is the glue in this sport to keep it from fading. Just got back from Gray Rock Alabama 4x4 event. Several hundred 4x4's of all types.I had a blast .Why is buggies fading? Because the public,most were born in the 80's and 90's, DO NOT KNOW ABOUT BUGGIES!Big magazines and websites tell the new kid,"Hey kid, this is the way to go!" So naturally since there's very little buggy persuasion, which way does he go?Big company representatives come out there to keep their product flowing with 4x4's and milk these young husbands with kids, dry!Both sports are awesome but you can't beat the bang for the buck with the buggy.The Panzerwagen did awesome but I had a stretched chain that was making a bad noise going in and out of the sprockets so I had to slow down. Stretched chains wear out sprockets fast.The chains jumped a misaligned sprocket 2 years ago and I reused them. Live and learn.I LOVE traditional buggies but the reason I build new stuff is because I know I have more traditional buggy time than any body on this site and I just want to do something different while I am still on the planet.Keep turnin tires!
Author:  sharpshooter [ Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: improvements for next year
They were over 450 rigs at greyrock this weekend :shock: what did they think of the panzerwagon when you came through the gate :?:
Author:  passat2800 [ Sun Oct 24, 2010 9:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: improvements for next year
People were taking pictures all day of it.They were amazed. I climbed a few straight up rocks with out cracking the throttle. They were amazed.I was approached with 3 buisiness people. One was an engineer and suggested to come see him. Instead of all the junk yard parts it could be all cast and fabricated.Right.GREAT idea but, does he know how broke I am after building all these buggies. Took my 74 year old Dad riding at Leeds Al. today. It was great!He used to coon hunt all in those woods in the 50's and 60's.
Author:  Firebug [ Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: improvements for next year
We may class for you next year,,,strait up rocks sounds like fun. 8)
Author:  streetstock174 [ Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: improvements for next year
My thoughts for the hill climb series next year... Been in a good debate with Racefreak over this tonight, and is something I think would work well. With the way everything is set up now, it enables a driver, if they want to, to sandbag to be in the running for the money. Thats not good. So here are my thoughts...


Right now there are 3 hills, A, B, and C. People race against said hill based on a qualifing time. Problem is, all three hills pay out. I understand the reasoning behind this, but this is also what causes problems and can create an unfair playing field. If driver A wants to win alittle money, they can sandbag so that they run on the b hill or c hill to improve their chances of winning, when they actually would belong in the A hill had they ran to their full potential. To fix this, we need to put in a seperation that will prevent this. My suggestion would be to have 3 classes, each explained below to place the buggies into a more equal playing field.

Class 1 - 1999cc or smaller engine buggies. This class would give the people who are just getting into buggies a place to run and be competitive. Someone with a stock 1600cc motor doesn't have to worry about competing with a 2500cc single seater buggy that is built to climb. They would use the qualifying hill as their competition hill.

Class 2 - 2000cc and up engine buggies. This class is for the more powerful buggies, that alot of us would fit into. Most of these buggies aren't purpose built just to climb. Motors in the same general area though. They would use the B hill as their competition hill.

Class 3 - Unlimited. Here is where all the single seaters would go, and 6 cyl, and V8 powered buggies would go. In this class most buggies are either purpose built to climb, or 250 hp or higher. 4 wheel drive buggies would go here also. Basically anything goes, nitrious, turbo chargers, etc. They would use the A hill as their competition hill.

Drivers that qualify for Class 1 or Class 2 can move up to the next higher class for more of a challenge if they desire. I.E. So if Joe Blow has a 1915cc and wants to run on the A hill against the Unlimited Class, they can. They cannot, however, move down a class. It just wouldn't be a fair competition.


As far as seperating everyone into classes would be simple as upon registration, filling out a information card specifying the type of buggy you are running, be it a single seater or two seater, engine type and size. Yes, I'm aware someone could fib on this. But most of us know what size motor this person has, and that person has. This limits the opportunity to cheat. It would have to be alittle of an honor system, but someone will know if this person really has a 2500cc that is running in Class 1 and shouldn't be. Even this can be eliminated, but would require buggies to be tech'd to measure the volume of the cylinder, which is easy as it only requires removing a spark plug. It could be done and not require much time.

Anyways, these are my thoughts of what would improve the hillclimbing series and equal the playing field to where at least people would be running against others that are roughly in the same ballpark of buggy without requiring additional time. Still 3 hills, still payout on all 3 hills, but more even buggies on the individual hills. Lets face it, someone with a stock 1600 that kicks out a whopping 60 horsepower running against someone with a 2500cc, or a 350 horsepower V8 motor isn't going to stand a chance..

And just for anyone that wants to know, yes I have ran in the competition. I have a two seater with a 2332cc vw engine in it, and could care less if I ever win a dime, I do it because I enjoy it. I just think it needs to be reworked alittle to establish a fairer playing field.
Author:  nitro_mudder [ Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: improvements for next year
Other then the heavy watercooled guys I like it. My buggy with a $6000 big 2500cc VW and around 1700 lbs would be in B class. With a water cooled $400 2260cc and weighing in around 1900 lbs ends up in A class???? Unfortunitly this is one of the problems with classes. Best solution isnt possible to do but would be power to weight classes but I dont see getting a dyno and scales at the event, lol. And like you I don't ever plan to win, but have a hard time seeing my buggy in the same class as the single seaters. Now If I had a single seater with an ecotec, then it would be more apples to apples. Or if I built mine into an all aftermarket $5k race motor like the same sized VW's. I just think we are taking a weight penilty for our motors already so why not run by the same class specs as the VW's. Now if you are turbo'd, supercharged, or running nitro bump into the top class. I have ridden with race freak and would say we are close on our buggies with the exception of my tranny being a stock six rib instead of a second gear wedle tranny. Just because my jets dont clog doesnt show me why I should be in the higher class. Just my logic and opinions, don't mean I am right.
Author:  streetstock174 [ Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: improvements for next year
nitro_mudder wrote:
Other then the heavy watercooled guys I like it. My buggy with a $6000 big 2500cc VW and around 1700 lbs would be in B class. With a water cooled $400 2260cc and weighing in around 1900 lbs ends up in A class???? Unfortunitly this is one of the problems with classes. Best solution isnt possible to do but would be power to weight classes but I dont see getting a dyno and scales at the event, lol. And like you I don't ever plan to win, but have a hard time seeing my buggy in the same class as the single seaters. Now If I had a single seater with an ecotec, then it would be more apples to apples. Or if I built mine into an all aftermarket $5k race motor like the same sized VW's. I just think we are taking a weight penilty for our motors already so why not run by the same class specs as the VW's. Now if you are turbo'd, supercharged, or running nitro bump into the top class. I have ridden with race freak and would say we are close on our buggies with the exception of my tranny being a stock six rib instead of a second gear wedle tranny. Just because my jets dont clog doesnt show me why I should be in the higher class. Just my logic and opinions, don't mean I am right.


I was under the assumption that most watercooled motors that are on the buggies are in the 250-300 hp range? Thats what I was going by and reason I was thinking they should go into the unlimited class. Maybe perhaps they should go by motor size too, putting them in the appropriate class with the vw motors if by going water cooled adds weight, kinda offsets the horsepower. If you and Racefreak are closely equal, then your additional weight is kinda of the equalizer, as Racefreak puts out alittle over 200 horsepower, but he is lighter. Would be an easy fix and just seperate all the single seaters and buggys with power adders into one class, then 2000cc and up two seaters and 1999cc and down two seaters regardless of motor type.

And I totally agree, measuring power to weight ratio is the perfect solution, but like you said, not an easy task. Even though I would love to have my buggy on a dyno.
Author:  racefreakj77 [ Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: improvements for next year
me and tim had a good fun debate last nite and the point you made was one of the only things that i disagreed on with his idea.pritty much everything else i agreed with. theres not much money to be made in it anyways but the money is not what its about or at least its not what it should be about. im am in it to get together with friends and make new friends and have some friendly comp. with a chance to win a couple of dollars to boot. my second place in the points trophy for the b class last year ment more to me then any money i could have won because i earned it fair and square and had a blast doin it. i raced dirt track stock cars for fifteen years in streetstock and prostreet classes for not much payout but for the love of the comp. and the friends i made over the years and every thing you got on the track you earned and thats what it should be about but it still needs to be fair. for what its worth i love buggying and this hillclimb comp. more then i ever did raceing and have met and become friends with some of the best people i have ever met in my life. over time the bugs will be worked out it just takes trial and error and time...rome was not built in a day.
Author:  nitro_mudder [ Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: improvements for next year
Stock ecotecs and subarus are putting out between 140 hp and 165 hp roughly. They are just cheap and reliable is why most of us run them.
Author:  streetstock174 [ Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: improvements for next year
nitro_mudder wrote:
Stock ecotecs and subarus are putting out between 140 hp and 165 hp roughly. They are just cheap and reliable is why most of us run them.


Ok, too easy. Edited my ideas to where it is broken up by cc only. So if you have a 2.3 liter ford engine, which is 2300 CC, it would put you in Class 2. Etc.
Author:  nitro_mudder [ Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: improvements for next year
Got my vote.
Author:  ridenrace6 [ Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: improvements for next year
i dont think the engine size idea will work any better than the qualifying idea

1. it will take a while to p&g 30 - 40 buggies and anybody can change engines from one race to the next so it will need to be done at every race and these events take a good bit of time and we/they try to figure out ways to make them go by faster not take longer

2. the honor system aint worth a crap either, if it did there wouldnt be any sandbagging going on in the first place

3. engine size dont necesarily = more horsepower, ive got a 1915 that will smoke my 2332 and ive also got a 2500 that will smoke a buddy of mines 2500 on almost identical setup buggy and trannys

4. more horsepower and better trannys are only part of the equation, a bad handling/setup buggy usually only gets worse with more

5. regardless of the buggy and its parts list driver skill means about as much, if not more, than the buggy does, i know a man that can take a 1835 and go places a lot of folks including myself cant or wont go with bigger motors and he will make it look like a cake walk

6. the best driver with the worst buggy can run with the worst driver with the best buggy

the qualify system would work just fine IF the honor sytem worked imo

my suggestion is put averaging of the times back in like last year to "help out" the honor system

my 2 cents
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