Some of you may have caught the thread that I did a few months ago about building a new VW engine for my buggy to replace my tired old 1776. Well, I've done some soul searching and I am now considering a water pumper, a Suby I think. I have done some research and have followed plumberbill's buildup (great job!)and know a few guys that have them, but I have some questions. Here goes.

My first concern is the footprint of the Suby flat four engine. Will it fit in my frame without having to hack it all to hell?

I have a '74 five rib transaxle currently in my buggy. There are adaptor kits for 002 and 091 transaxles (and Mendeola, yea right). Which of these is required? Do you use the stock starter? How much does the adaptor add to the length of the engine?

I noticed that plumberbill added motor mounts to his engine cage. I saw some comments about the added weight of the Suby and some concern about broken transaxle bellhousings. I am currently running a type 1 torsion housing with type 2 CVs and axles with 2x3 tubular arms, 28mm SAW torsion bars, and a SAW center torsion adjuster. What does the Suby weigh? Could the added weight be compensated for with this setup? Would I need to go to 930 joints with 3x3 arms?

What do you guys think of the twin turbo model? There are several for sale on Ebay and I can see by the photos that the turbos would be on the front of the engine closer to the cockpit with the exhausts leaving from the turbo outputs. I would love the additional power but it seems like there would be a lot of heat to deal with coming from the compressors. Some of the engines have the turbo heat shields from the factory still in place, some don't. Any opinions?

What is the best way to acquire one of these engines? There are several U-Pullits around here and of course, Ebay. When you buy one, I would assume that the computer should come with it and that the engine would not run without it. Can the computer be bought sepearately on the adtermarket?

I have access to some rather handy fabrication equipment (bender, CNC palsma cutter, full machine shop) plus I know a little about electrical stuff (I am a field tech at Johnson Controls) so I am pretty sure I could pull this off. What else do I need to know? Obviously, I will have to find a way to mount up a radiator. What other glitches have you all run into? How did you go about solving them?

Thanks for the info,

Dale Hall

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Lets RIDE!

I do think you would be very happy with Suby. I'm very happy with mine. There is alot of questions but not to hard. The fisrt one, Suby foot print. Same as vw give ro take a half an inch. When I did mine I did not loose any ground cleaence. i tilted the engine and trans to make up for the oil pan. Second,The five rib could be set up to handle the suby but the spiders need to be changed. I would suggest a six rib diff or six rib all together. if you have a five rib you need a 002 set. the only difference is the lenth of the studs. Six rib(091) needs longer studs by 1/2 inch. Third,I use a starter from a auto stick bug. Alot of suby guys use hightourqe starter. The adaptor is 12mm thick. I put motor mounts on mine too. The suby added aout 50 pounds to the buggy, not too bad compaired to other conversions. Mine is a type one torsion also with stock by two arms. type two joints. As far as turbo models, The power is awsome but you need to upgrade trans and cvs for turbo. I got my subys by buying the whole car. It was cheaper than junk yard. you need the computer and wire harness but there are aftermarket harnesses and comps avalible. Try outfront motorsports they have it all for the conversion.

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"YOU CAN MAKE THINGS HAPPEN, WATCH THINGS HAPPEN OR WONDER WHAT THE F$$K HAPPEND...WE'RE MAKING THINGS HAPPEN" The strong words of Captain Phil! Rest in peice!

I also run a Suby, Steve is right on. My suby ej22 ate 2 three ribs last year..I went with a stock 6 rib and the gearing is fine with 31" v treads. I gave it lots of abuse and it did fine with no extra motor mounts. Just brace the tranny well. I did add a superdiff recently. My buggy is heavier than average and I am now looking into turbo or ej25, or maybe even a 6 boxer. If I had 3 or 4 grand to invest I would still put the money into a suby. What mine lacks in raw hp like the built stroker 2500 air cooled it makes up with reliability. Watch the D&K hill climb. I finished 13th but that was only a half second behind a 4.3. I drove Kybuggy1's buggy an it is a big vw and and it is a rocket ship,,can't take that away from the AC crowd , but if you are on a budget , the Suby is fine and very user friendly.

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If your clutch ain't slippin,, you probably got it adjusted right!!!!!

my ej25 is a jdm motor.(japaneese domestic market) long block cost me 925.00 although i have seen them cheaper. these motors have low mileage and were cleaner than anything local.i looked for a complete car but found nothing but junk. wiring harness was 75.00 from a bone yard. i sent it out to enginewiring.com and it came back ready to go just plug and play. watch for his auctions on ebay to get a really good price. excellent customer support answered the phone everytime and walked me through all the technical issues. the ecm was 75.00 off ebay there are certain ones that you have to use but the most important thing was that it must be for a manual trans w/ej25 enginewiring.com also has good info no that issue. i thought about going turbo, even ordered it then cancelled because of the space issues. 6 rib w/superdiff and 930 cv's seem to handle the power with no problems, just pretend that there is no reverse gear! madmike also has alot of knowlege on this subject he's the one that got me intrested unfortunatly he has no internet access right now. with all the fab equipment you have your build should be no problem.

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**********"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
- Sigmund Freud **********
**********"The problem is not the availability of guns, it is the availability of morons."
- Antonio Meloni **********

Hey Plumberbill:

Thanks for the info. Questions after reading your post: you say you "tilted" the engine and transmission to "make up for the oil pan". Why was this necessary?

Last fall, I got talked into jumping a hill because two other riding buddies were doing it and when I landed the torsion bar stripped out the inside center splines on the left side of the torsion housing. So, I bought a Sway-Away adjusable center section from Mckenzies and installed it. I fabricated a new beefed-up front mount and welded all that up and had to get all this done the weekend before a big ride at Windrock ( no pressure). Anyway, I guess that mount would have to be cut out and redone to tilt the engine. Thinking about the rear mount, hmmm - lots of work. Any other solutions for pan clearence? I think I would rather redo the engine skid pan.

Thinking and typing...

Thanks,

Dale

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Lets RIDE!

I redid mine after I saw Steve's. As long as the tranny flanges stay very near to present location you redrill the front tranny mount so the front of the tranny is pointing down and raise the rear tranny mount. I think I did the front as much as I could before things got too tight. On the rear I cut some flat steel and welded to the rear mount and redrilled the rear mount holes. This is one of the easiest mods for gaining clearance. The shifter rod and shifter box will need some modification . This is one of the best mods I ever did to my buggy, and easiest too. ,,my numbers were a little off so I deleted them,,,

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If your clutch ain't slippin,, you probably got it adjusted right!!!!!

the Suby required a little more room for the oil pan. It usually takes up 1.5 inches more than v-dub. I lowered the front 1.5 and raised the rear 1 inch so I did not loose any clearence Heres a pic.

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"YOU CAN MAKE THINGS HAPPEN, WATCH THINGS HAPPEN OR WONDER WHAT THE F$$K HAPPEND...WE'RE MAKING THINGS HAPPEN" The strong words of Captain Phil! Rest in peice!

OHHH, you tilted it forward. When you started talking about tilting I was only thinking about the other axis. That makes more sense. I have the offset shifter. My shifter is lower than the transaxle shift shaft so the shift rod has two coupler joints in it. I ran the aluminum offset for several years but the two-coupler arrangement is much better.

What clutch do you use, is it a stock type 200mm VW clutch? I noticed that the flywheel comes with the adaptor kit.

You guys know what the HP ratings for the turbo and non-turbo models are?

Thanks for the info. Sounds like this just might be my winter project.

Dale

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Lets RIDE!

i just got my new woods buggy frame, and i'm throwing around the whole watercooled idea too, and was wondering just about how much $ im lookin at to do it. The only thing i've got drive train wise now is a couple 091's and a 002, so im not sure what motor i would go with, but power isn't a problem. Is it possible for under 2000, or more like 3-4000?

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Maybe you should chug on over to mamby pamby land....

I would think by the time you bought every thing you need to do it right (operative word) you will be in the 3 to 4 grand area. I have seen several Subie deals on the Samba. A few of them included ECM, wiring harness and adapter plate fpor the trans.

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Water cooled Dry Sumped Subaru Powered Turbo Charged Fuel Injected 2500CC Tank. Oh Rah! He who dies with the most Toys not only wins, He also wears them out!

I am on vacation, without internet access but going to chime in.....go honda!

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Mike
Got Honda?

I think the money part of the deal depends on how much you are willing to do yourself. You can save a lot of money by pulling a stock wiring harness and chopping it up yourself, and also by not just buying the first engine that comes your way. There are deals out there, and there are a lot of subaru legacy's out there (my local pull-a-part had 3-4 of them and they only charge maybe $150 with a warrrany, but of course they have high mileage).
I personally have no problem with having a high mileage engine when I know I could buy 3-4 of them for the same price as a "good" lower mileage one. I know a lot of guys on here will disagree with me though...

Just trying to let you know there are options to work with...

Edit: Oh, and you can "do it right" by being creative and smart. It's not always about money. (no offense, Ody, I know you do good work).

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Get me that hammer, pronto!

No Offense taken Railhomie. Everybody does things to suit there style and finances. As you get older you tend to buy the best and do the least amount of work and end up with the best in the end. As you stated you can buy 3 high mileage motors for the price of one low mileage motor. The problems with that concept is A) they dont have as much power as a low mileage motor and B) Why would you not want to put one motor in and not have to worry about changing it in a season or two or maybe blowing it up on the trail. I really like to build things and be creative however I also value my time and want to ride my toys and not have to work on them constantly and I hate breaking down on the trail. It seems it allways happens in the worst spot. The other side of that is I'm broke down and I'm now stopping my Buddys from riding too. Food for thought.

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Water cooled Dry Sumped Subaru Powered Turbo Charged Fuel Injected 2500CC Tank. Oh Rah! He who dies with the most Toys not only wins, He also wears them out!

Oh, I definitely understand that reasoning, my actual point (though I didn't make it clear at all) was that you can get a pretty high mileage W/C engine and put it in a buggy and , unless it's a ridiculous amount of mileage, it will last for quite a long time (considering it's not going to be in a car, so it won't get the mileage, it's not lugging the weight, and should be running cooler, though it will be run harder, plus it's a modern engine). So yeah, you buy a cheap engine, you're taking a risk, but I'd rather blow a $200 engine by doing something dumb (which happens) than a $1000 or $1500 engine, you catch my drift? Plus factor in how long your gonna have the engine before you think you're going to decide to go bigger and better. Because of that, you may not need it too long, hah.

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Get me that hammer, pronto!

I agree with what you are saying to a point however even tho a Buggy is lighter, the motor takes 5 times the abuse that it would normally take in a street driven car. Think about it. Your asking it to pull 31" X 15" wide "V" tread or Boggers typically weighing in a 50 lbs each up grades at pretty much full throttle with the tires grabbing then spinning then grabbing............you get the picture. The car will never see anything near theses conditions. At best you would get stuck in snow! Again a high mileage motor is just not up to the task.

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Water cooled Dry Sumped Subaru Powered Turbo Charged Fuel Injected 2500CC Tank. Oh Rah! He who dies with the most Toys not only wins, He also wears them out!

Okay, I quit. You win.
Lata playas.

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Get me that hammer, pronto!

railhomie -- i understand what u are saying , i live on a low budget too == it just seems like some guys cant seem to understand that not everybody has that much money to blow

you can build a descent dependable buggy without spending a fortune -- you may have to work out a few bugs , but all it takes is time and patience !!!!!!!!!

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harleys and vws----ac all the way

I love my country, But i fear my government

Fo shizzle. Backup for the limited funds buggy builds is here! Hah.

Also, a side note, not all of us are planning on doing hardcore hillclimbing. You may beat your buggy up, but there's a good chance that you're not going to run the hell out of the engine when you're trail riding as much as climbing a vertical wall, haha.

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Get me that hammer, pronto!

Believe me I understand having a budget to work with. I drove a beater Buggy for 4 years before I built my new one. There is nothing cheap about an Offroad Hobby. My comments have more to do with being able to stay on the trail with out the hassel of a break down. If your going to be in it expect to pay the Piper either now or later. In the long run its going to cost about the same so why not bite the Bullet and do it once and not over and over. After all the reason you would be doing a water cooled conversion in the first place is for the power, dependability and longivity is it not. If your on that tight of a budget then don't go this route and keep the VW 1641 and have fun.

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Water cooled Dry Sumped Subaru Powered Turbo Charged Fuel Injected 2500CC Tank. Oh Rah! He who dies with the most Toys not only wins, He also wears them out!

I agree with you 100% Ody, on the do it right the first time! Whats the ballpark number on adapters, rad., ect on a suby swap?

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Maybe you should chug on over to mamby pamby land....

buy the best cry once eh roy

my build started out cheap.....then i got everything i actually needed to climb.....and ended up spending the cost of a new compact car. but i have rode the $hit outta it for 2-3 months every weekend and it hasn't let me down yet. so i think its all worth it in the long run.

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2332cc Air Cooled Screaming Meanie. Predator Singleseat.

"Lets go get stupid"

Those sound like reasons to run a well-built Type 1 stroker!!
Jus' playin, but Couldnt resist.
Dont know how I got in the watercooled section, must've clicked in the wrong spot.

Sorry for hi-jack. I'll butt out!!
Good luck on the build Luvsdirt, & dont forget antifreeze come winter. HEEHEEHE

Larry

Wow, didn't mean to brew up a shit storm!

I am still not sure what I want to do. The fact is, I will probably spend about the same money building up a good AC engine as I will getting the Suby installed and setup correctly. And, it will be about the same amount of work.

With the AC buildup, I would buy all the individual parts for the long block then carefully put it together. Taking the time to make sure that the assembly is perfect is where most of the work is. It then bolts up to what I have now. No frame mods, radiators, or adaptor plates. Carb jetting and break-in, ready to ride.

With the Suby, I buy a complete engine that is ready to go, needs nothing internally. It is modern, powerful, tough and reliable. Most of the time is spent figuring out all the little details that make it work, the computer, the exhaust system, radiator and hoses, sensors, and frame mods. Crank it up and head to the woods.

Either buildup realistically is about 2-3 grand best I can tell. With the AC, my realistic parts list is about $2400. With the Suby, an engine is a grand, adaptor plate $500, computer a couple hundred, plus another couple hundred for surprises and odds and ends.

Either buildup makes about the same power, somewhere in the 150 to 200 HP range. The Suby undoubtedly has the edge in reliability and tractability, I have rode with Suby buggies and they run SO smoothly. They always start, idle perfectly, and the computer corrects every little burp and hiccup that the engine makes before you even know it. But the AC has that nostalgia, that unmistakable 4-into-1 exhaust note that only a four cylinder air cooled engine can make. It is a sound that I fell in love with about 25 years ago.

So, I still can't decide. After Labor Day, the buggy gets torn down for the Winter buildup...whatever that may be...

Dale Hall

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Lets RIDE!

Wow, alot arguments here. I'm almost positive I have less than a grand in the suby swap. It seems to run ok for me, i love it. The adaptor kit is 440 from kennedy but I made a mistake and upgraded to one from out back motorsports. I spent 770 on the adapter with the water necks, 80 for rad on ebay( Honda civic), Jaq fuel pump 50 bucks for two from salvage yard, I have two motors which I have no money in both with high miles. A few hundred on the little things. Now I would have to spend 3500 at least to get the power from v-dub. I have a 2077 on the shelf that I know DVS1 spent at least that building it. I did all the wireing myself (with the help of Madmike), alot of the fab work with the help of DVS1. So its all in what you want to spend.. Odyknuck your right about doin it right the first time equalls less time broke in the trail.

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"YOU CAN MAKE THINGS HAPPEN, WATCH THINGS HAPPEN OR WONDER WHAT THE F$$K HAPPEND...WE'RE MAKING THINGS HAPPEN" The strong words of Captain Phil! Rest in peice!

This is my suby with a 4 into 1 header from a v-dub. if you listen you can hear it thr rev limiter! Can hardly tell its a waterbuggy!

Another one!

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"YOU CAN MAKE THINGS HAPPEN, WATCH THINGS HAPPEN OR WONDER WHAT THE F$$K HAPPEND...WE'RE MAKING THINGS HAPPEN" The strong words of Captain Phil! Rest in peice!