'S cause you've doubled the leverage you've got, but you could have done the same by just swapping the MC's out on the fiddle brakes (or swapping the unit out for ones with smaller M/C's if it's those bloody CNC ones), swapping the calipers out for ones with bigger pistons, or even just redrilling the pivots on the handle(s)

Im running a stock single piston bug master now. I recently upgraded to a larger cutter bore, or at least I thought I was upgrading. I would have never thought that a smaller master would do the trick. Live and learn.

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If your clutch ain't slippin,, you probably got it adjusted right!!!!!

the chain guard looks good bug

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lets just ride

I guess you are correct in that he has effectively reduced the bore of m/c piston by increasing the caliper size, but is there no value in doubling his brake pad surface??

Talk all the geometry and physics crap all y'all want, but his cutters are great now. If it works, it works. The same thing worked for Clayton, wbsouth, and Lewis Travis, who all run large heavy tires on unconventional drive trains and are some of the best of the best at tight woods hillclimbing. And the last name, he IS an engineer....with 35 yrs of buggy riding experience, the granddaddy of hillclimbing KY style. If it were more effective to use a smaller m/c, you can bet he would've.

Keyboard or textbook engineering seems to have little to do with how things actually work in our woods.
NO, you are not pissing on my bonfire . Ask anybody on here, I love a good arguement.

Not really, you're not getting the discs or pads hot enough to use chemical bonding, and you're on organic/semi-organic pads anyway.

They only thing that will help is less brake wear (but then, you've got two sets of pads to replace instead...)

What works on paper works in the woods, provided you implement it properly, physics is physics, facts are facts.
If it works on paper and not in the woods, you forgot something on the paper or didn't fit it properly 'fore hitting the woods.

Maybe so. Luckily, guys like Lewis and friends, and Mr. Burns already did the 'paperwork' for us years ago and spent 25 years in the woods hillclimbing making sure nothing was forgotten.
It is unfortunate the pond is so big and expensive to cross. Its sort of a "you had to be there" kinda thing. You would not be the first to be suprised by what some of these ol' boys here can do. No amount of video or typing can show it or explain it. You might pinch a hole in your Def Leppard bloomers if you could see it in person.

I might give you a shock yourself when you see what I do for a living

I don't like extra unsprung weight for offroading, it's bad enough with the big tyres as it is, I rather just get the MC's right to start with.


And you don't want to know how many times I hear that 'well the old guys did it this way' statement in the off-roading scene, we used to get that over here from those telling us a lightweight frame was no good, use steam pipe, and you need a beam axle for enough travel, and everything had to be made out of 1/4 thick angle iron, brake discs have to be massive but you can use shit calipers and pads and then go bigger and bigger with the discs if they don't work...
Been there, heard it, might have worked for them, doesn't mean there's isn't a better solution, it just means they didn't try it or went about trying to improve it the wrong way, or just couldn't be arsed
Progress - taking all the hard work the old guys did, and work on it from there, improve it, don't just nick the fruits of their labours and sit on it

Alright now im wanting to know what you do for a living ???

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"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance."

Part of it involves designing and building complete circuit/rally and off-road car braking systems
I.E. Making sure all the parts will work properly with each other, with enough heat capacity/pedal travel/modulation/feel/pad drag/release characteristics, ABS tuning, etc - and research/design/manufacturing bespoke parts to do the job if needed.

I do know a little about brakes

Damn guess you do lol.i couldnt figure mine out untill i talked with the race shop and they told me i was running to hard of a pad on my willwoods.So now i have real good brakes i went with BP10 pads they are for light cars and low to mid heat range.

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"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance."

Tbh, all the Wilwood pads are pretty outdated now, when we're running them on the buggy early on we used to chew through a set of Poly A's in one event
The BP-10 isn't bad but it lacks a bit of bite, (although if you're running ribs or v-treads up front that might be a good thing, they're crap under the brakes, just float on a wedge of mud).
I'd say both Mintex 1144 or the Ferodo DS2500 would be pretty good for most woodsbuggy's though, both have good bite right from cold, release easily, easy modulation, both are pretty soft and easy on the discs, although I don't know what's available over there (I'd assume the mintex's are!)

Brakes are for sissy's they just slow you down

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"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance."

You come play over here and I'll take your brakes off to save weight

Apparently, the old school guys you been talikn to are WAY older school than our gurus. We ALL know heavy chassis and heavy rotating masses are not the way to go for extreme hillclimbing, or racing for that matter.

You are barkin up the wrong tree if you think I dont agree 100% about the light weight deal. I damn sure dont like extra unsprung weight. I (and many many others) run smaller, lighter tires (31 x 15.50, about 28 lbs each tire and beadlocked wheel). My buggy weighs 1340 lbs, Dont know if thats heavy to you, but thats fairly light over here. Some woods buggies are lighter than that. If someone got close to my buggy with a piece of 1/4" anything and a welder, I'd smack 'em .

Firebug runs a heavier and totally different set up, with chaindrive. He had to do something different. He wants to try and do it his way, which is cool and I respect it. Would a smaller bore foot brake m/c made his nearly 100 lb tire n wheel combinations stop quicker and more solidly when he danced his cutting brakes (fiddle stick I think is what you called it)?

I aint sayin you dont know your stuff about racing or brakes, but hillclimbing aint racing. Most of us on here are not about rally racing. A few are, and what you know may be very beneficial to all.

So tell me what will make my cutter react even quicker? I have 3/4 bore CNC m/c, wilwood 2 psi residual valve, single handled CNC cutter ( dont know what he bore is, I think 3/4 is about standard for them), 12" of braided flex line, the rest is steel 3/16", and forged Wilwood dynalite II's with polymatrix a pads on cheap porshe style rotors, that are being lightened by drilling the hats (not finished with that yet). I get about 1" to 2" of cutter handle travel before wheel is locked down at near full throttle on a hard pull. Sometimes after riding pretty hard, the will handle will get more travel in it than that, like 3"-4" each way. Like when really cranking on them climbing 3 or 4 hills one right after the other.

My son's buggy has a wilwood 1" m/c and a neal billet single cutter, rubber flexlines, and the same caliper/rotor set up but with organic pads. Cutters feel about the same as mine initially , but they dont seem to have the same amount of fade as mine. But all of his is brand new stuff. My calipers are new, but my mc and cutter are both about 3 yrs old. (About 30 outings on them, if that)

Are your cutters the CNC design/copies?

If so, they probably want adjusting to compensate for wear on the seals that block the input port off, it's a bit of a crap design to be honest as there always has to be some play there, it'd be better with a needle valve, but there ya go.

I'd probably ditch the poly-a's too, good bite but they struggle to put a transfer layer down when the discs are muddy and then they wear faster than a butter block on a belt sander, try some carbotech xp8's, they're probably more than you'll ever need off-road but they don't mind water and mud so long as you get the transfer layer down early on, probably let you make your discs lighter and run 'em hotter.
I'd check for pad knockoff too, 2psi valves aren't really enough off road unless you have anti-knockoff springs in the calipers or floating rotors (which I assume you don't have?)


And no, a smaller foot M/C wouldn't help Firebug's fiddle/cutting brakes work better, but smaller fiddle brake M/C's would...

Is your buggy single seat?
If so the closest equivilent over here is about ~1250lbs

Does anyone make a needle valve design single handled cutting brake? I assume that Neal and CNC both share a similiar internal design, since Neal was a partner at CNC who got miffed and went out on his own, or so I heard.
The poly a's have only been on for one ride, they grooved the hell out of my rotors at the beginning of the day when I did a recommended "break in " procedure, but it didnt seem to get any worse over the course of the day and they bit harder as the day wore on. I will loook for carbotech xp8's online. Is carbotech the mnfctr name, or is that a type of pad made by someone else?

What is pad knockoff?? No springs in my calipers/
One piece rotors, not floating. EVERYONE runs 2 psi valves here that I know of. WOuldnt a 10psi cause the nonfloating calipers to rub a little excessively?

Only person I know of that does them is Fouquet in France, internal ratchet adjuster so they compensate for wear over time, stainless needles and brass seats.
The problem is if they're not shimmed 100% they start pushing more + more fluid back before they seal (as the fluid thins out from the heat).
I'm assuming they're definately bled through
Carbotech is the mfr name, if you're getting on with the wilwoods let 'em run and see how you get one then.

Pad knockoff is where the brake pad gets pulled away from the disc from vibrations/impacts and shit on the discs knocking them out of the way, which means you need to move enough fluid to get them back up to to the disc before they bite again, I've never found the 2psi valves to be enough for heavy off-roading, we get impacts all the time that most cars would be totalled over - you do get a little more drag but it's worth more time to have the brakes 100% than to loose ~1bhp and gain a touch of brake heat imo.

Thanks. I found the carbotech site and they seem to be focused on brake modulation and not locking them up.
I'm all for trying them though if they will lock down repeatedly without fade better than the poly a's.

That's why I recommended them, they're very consistant pads, very easy to modulate, and still have shitloads of stopping power even when cold.

ALOT of good brake info here!

I found a 4psi residual valve the other day but was afraid it was too much. as larry said we all pretty much us the 2psi valve, and i never thought it was enough. figured the 10psi was to much, what do you thank of the 4psi?

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Air cooled forever,i hate rusty tools!!!!!!!

Anybody want to trade a smaller bore cutter for a set of Wilwood calipers?

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If your clutch ain't slippin,, you probably got it adjusted right!!!!!

May as well leave 'em now you've gone to all that effort!
Just give yourself a little less work to do next time!

you are both right in my opinion

its kinda like "if it aint broke dont fix it" and "they used to tote water from a spring"

i definantly need some help/knowledge on brakes especially the cutters cause mine aint worth a sh!t so thanks for all the info

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Just Stand On It!!!!

Chris

here try this

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NOW GAS IT!!!!!